Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

[VintageReefer]

Casual aside, for treating injured damaged euphies i have found a dip in povidone iodine solution to be most helpful. If you get one in with damaged heads again i highly recommend giving that a try.

Had I noticed the damage from start, I would have

Once I saw receding and skeleton I did do an iodine dip but next day bjd was back.

Should have done it upon arrival. Maybe this will be a new step I incorporate into torch acclimation just to be safe

 

[DangerDave4G63]

Yes, I think indeed low phosphates or a bad phosphorus nitrogen balance are the root cause of the problem, not any kind of infection. The infection affects only corals weakend by phosphate deficiency.

I had problems with BJD from time to time, maybe every two years or so and it only affected one or two corals at a time. I noticed very early that a shift of nutrient balance to nitrogen may be one cause, maybe 25 or more years ago. Since I have accepted the importance of phosphate concentrations and have increased the concentrations gradually to 0.1 ppm or higher I had exactly 0 problems with BJD. I think the same is true for most other infections and coral diseases, maybe even for fish and crustacean diseases. The biochemical background may be the competition for phosphate which makes microorganisms like dinoflagellates more aggressive and toxic (scientifically proven) and may distress the whole tanks system.

So what if the tank is so new that you don't even have any phosphates and only 4 or 5 on Nitrates?

When I had my 90G predrilled back when I lived in Ohio about 15 years ago, I never ran a skimmer nor any filter. I only ran an algae turf scrubber and I also didn't do water changes for over 3 years. I had this tank for over 4 years before the power went out in the winter while I was out of town and killed almost everything in it. Never once got BJD or had any other problems with diseases. Hell I never even lost a fish or coral until that power outage. Think a Nem got caught in a power head once....and then no more getting Nems since.

What is this balance we should be attaining? Been in the game long enough to know that every few years things change. Used to want low to no nitrates, then you should have no more than 5 then they say you should have 10-20 because corals use nitrates, etc, etc.

After the Chemiclean treatment I did end up losing the last frogspawn. The green candy canes still don't look too happy and now my GSP really isn't coming out anymore. I noticed today that some of the flesh on the candy canes look like it is about to detach.

 

[Hans-Werner]

So what if the tank is so new that you don't even have any phosphates and only 4 or 5 on Nitrates?

When I had my 90G predrilled back when I lived in Ohio about 15 years ago, I never ran a skimmer nor any filter. I only ran an algae turf scrubber and I also didn't do water changes for over 3 years. I had this tank for over 4 years before the power went out in the winter while I was out of town and killed almost everything in it. Never once got BJD or had any other problems with diseases. Hell I never even lost a fish or coral until that power outage. Think a Nem got caught in a power head once....and then no more getting Nems since.

What is this balance we should be attaining? Been in the game long enough to know that every few years things change. Used to want low to no nitrates, then you should have no more than 5 then they say you should have 10-20 because corals use nitrates, etc, etc.

After the Chemiclean treatment I did end up losing the last frogspawn. The green candy canes still don't look too happy and now my GSP really isn't coming out anymore. I noticed today that some of the flesh on the candy canes look like it is about to detach.

I think in general we can ignore nitrate and nitrogen concentration in almost all of the tanks. Even if there should be a N deficiency in the N-P-balance it is harmless and easy to be corrected. A N deficiency of limitation becomes visible in paling or bleaching of the brown color of the zooxanthellae while the fluorescent colors and other colors are not or little affected. This paling of the brown color does not cause other problems except maybe a little reduced growth. Dosing ammonium will darken the brown colors in only a few days.

The danger is more on the other side. If phosphate concentration is low and nitrogen is easily availble, competition for phosphate starts. This is when organisms unpack their chemical weapons and start to fight each other. This is proven for some toxic dinoflagellates, but I would think this is also true for Palythoa and others. The fishpathogen Amyloodinium (Oodinium) is a dinoflagellate.

Corals are not the best competitors for phosphate and get weakened. At the same time harmful microorganisms may be trying to find new phosphate sources and start to attack the weakened corals.

In some toxic dinoflagellates also N-limitation alone caused lower toxicity and reduced growth rates.

This contains some speculation but in general this is the way organisms interact.

 

[vert33]

Does anyone know the way to test the water for the bacteria break down?

 

[Pistondog]

Does anyone know the way to test the water for the bacteria break down?

@AquaBiomics

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

0.125 mg / L

Thats the dose I recommended in the original post, and have seen many clients use. I chose it based on the known sensitivity of bacteria in the genus Arcobacter to this antibiotic.

At this dose, it causes minor reductions in the nitrifying community but otherwise no detectable harm to the microbial community. But this is enough to knock Arcobacter 1103 back to undetectable levels.

The biggest unknown currently is duration. I ran the treatment about 7-10 days, some clients have seen it pop back up later at this duration. Perhaps a longer treatment would be better, maybe a couple weeks to a month. I'd love to see data on this point.

@AquaBiomics as a corollary to this question. If someone was to bring in "live rock" or snails from Florida vendors, do you think it would be a prudent step to inoculate these in at least a few hour bath before adding to a tank? I've been wondering specifically about the benefits outweighing the costs with respect to bringing in some TBSW or Marco ocean cured rock. Have you seen anyone test these sources to see what the bacterial equalizer settings look like as they come in? Thought being that we don't want to introduce more arcobacter or some yet unidentified pathogen to our tanks. I remember back in the 90s, the strategy was to replace about 10% of your live rock with new live rock from the ocean every 6-8 months. Wondering if doing that again with these sources could serve to be beneficial? Curious on your take or if that should even be a concern with the Caribbean being what it is today.

 

[drawman]

Yes, I think indeed low phosphates or a bad phosphorus nitrogen balance are the root cause of the problem, not any kind of infection. The infection affects only corals weakend by phosphate deficiency.

I had problems with BJD from time to time, maybe every two years or so and it only affected one or two corals at a time. I noticed very early that a shift of nutrient balance to nitrogen may be one cause, maybe 25 or more years ago. Since I have accepted the importance of phosphate concentrations and have increased the concentrations gradually to 0.1 ppm or higher I had exactly 0 problems with BJD. I think the same is true for most other infections and coral diseases, maybe even for fish and crustacean diseases. The biochemical background may be the competition for phosphate which makes microorganisms like dinoflagellates more aggressive and toxic (scientifically proven) and may distress the whole tanks system.

So you’re promoting PO4 at 0.1ppm. Are you saying also that Nitrate should be at a specific level, or not limited, or really doesn’t matter?

Casual aside, for treating injured damaged euphies i have found a dip in povidone iodine solution to be most helpful. If you get one in with damaged heads again i highly recommend giving that a try.

Where did you get the povidone iodine and how much did you use for a dip?

 

[Red_Beard]

So you’re promoting PO4 at 0.1ppm. Are you saying also that Nitrate should be at a specific level, or not limited, or really doesn’t matter?

Where did you get the povidone iodine and how much did you use for a dip?

I get mine from the drug store, Walgreens in particular. They sell it usually in the first aid section for antiseptic purposes. I usually squeeze just enough in that the water begins to change from a clearish yellow into a little brownish tint. Super scientific, i know. But, you can watch the damaged coral soak that up and the water will be noticeably clearer/yellower afterward. I usually give it a min or two, but no more than 5

 

[drawman]

I get mine from the drug store, Walgreens in particular. They sell it usually in the first aid section for antiseptic purposes. I usually squeeze just enough in that the water begins to change from a clearish yellow into a little brownish tint. Super scientific, i know. But, you can watch the damaged coral soak that up and the water will be noticeably clearer/yellower afterward. I usually give it a min or two, but no more than 5

Thank you I may be trying this tonight

 

[Red_Beard]

Thank you I may be trying this tonight

Let me know how it goes!

 

[drawman]

Let me know how it goes!

I ended up doing successive H202 and iodine (TM reef dip) dips last night. I superglued next to the necrotic tissue line. Here's hoping that it pulls through!

 

[marygorham7390]

Thanks so much for this !! Just administered my first dose ! I noticed one of my favorite torches and Duncan coral broke out with BJD today out of nowhere. I will update on results !