Emergency!

[FrancineJ]

I’ll try to make this quick and simple as time is obviously of the essence:

One of my tanks:
Fish:
2 clowns
1 blue green chromis
1 YWG
1 royal gramma

Fed royal gramma one morning and appeared normal- all fish did

Then went to tank later that evening and gramma was covered in spots (looked like ich) once the whites went out noticed one clown also had spots (led me to believe it was velvet) because the gramma who generally hangs near the lower half of the tank was now up high and in the path of the wavemaker....

All fish have been moved to QT
Now here’s the issue... the effected clown appears to have sloughing skin and now so does the gramma (gramma is the worst... laying on his side most of the time- gets up and swims once and a while)

Of course this all is happening over the holidays.... I live in a small town 1 LFS- no meds of any kind.... (Canada has banned pretty much everything- even stuff for like FW ich)

So I have on order:
Cupramine (and copper test)
PraziPro
I have furan 2 here already
Ordered Kanaplex

Fish are all eating except the gramma... (using selcon when NLS)

My issue.... I have no idea if I have velvet or brook... I almost think I have both??!!

What do I do... I have 1 QT tank and that’s it....
I am about to order metro as well with maybe some focus....

The only plan of attack I can see is:
Treating QT with culpramine
Feeding all fish metro with focus

Then after the copper treatment: pull out all copper and treat with Kanaplex, furan 2 and PraziPro?

I have never had a sick fish in my life but I really think I do have both... can’t get CP here... can’t get formalin.... not sure what to treat when and nothing is coming until Wednesday at the earliest....

Anyone see a good plan of attack here??
Let me know I’m open to options here

(Chromis, YWG and 1 clown “appear” unaffected)

Also gave gramma and the 1 clown a FW dip... did not see any flukes and the clown still has ich like spots but only on the clear fringe of his fins... he has more of the sloughed skin.... and now so does the gramma

Could the weird appearance of the skin be just from velvet? Should I try treating with copper first?

I do have some other meds from my freshwater stuff - melaxfix, pimafix, Paraguard, (the aforementioned furan 2) and like basic stress guard... stuff like that....

I can most likely get some form of ich med
Today but not sure what brand it would be I think they had like api super ich cure....
If there’s anything else that they possibly will have left that I have not mentioned please let me know.... it’s very hard now with this med ban.... thankfully most stores stocked up and have a few things left so anything for dips or baths or anything that might help
(No ruby reef rally)

Again no idea if it’s ich, brook, velvet or a combo of them....

BTW these are my 12 yo’s Fish..... no idea what happened but I think it was my fault and I added 2 zoa frags and didnt QT (they were dipped... added and then dipped again about a week later as a Nudi came out of one but no abnormal signs with them) (we usually do) but now I feel terrible!

DT is fallow now (just snails and 1 teeny tiny pistol shrimp (Randall’s)

Only other thing is he got a small Dino outbreak right at the same time and I know velvet is a form of Dino.... possible connection?

Thanks (I can try to get some pictures if needed)

 

[JBKReef]

@HotRocks and @Humblefish are the real authorities on QT, try to post in one of the quarantine threads as well.

Take some photos of the fish in as close to white light as possible to help identify.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Sounds like velvet if appeared that quickly.

Fw bath might help get the load on the fish down.

Copper or CP(prescription needed) would be the drugs needed. Going to need to remove the shrimp and snails to run either.
https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...osing-Treatment-Instructions?mobile_site=true

The hana copper checker is what @HotRocks uses now.

Dino outbreak is more likely related to very low phosphate in the tank. While its fallow the dino outbreak might get worse since no fish poop, maybe turn off any nutrient controls and ghost feed a little.

 

[FrancineJ]

1- as mentioned in the post FW dip was already done

2- I already explained that cupramine is ordered but due to the holidays it won’t be here until the 2nd (fish stores in Canada are banning meds- had to order online)
Can’t get CP here.... not even with a prescription... I live in a town with like a couple thousand ppl.... 1 pet store and WELL over 1.5 hours (one way) to the next one...

Also as mentioned in post I have a tester

Fish are NOT in DT with snails -again as mentioned in post the tank is now fallow and the fish are all in QT...

Everything is turned off (doing 72 hr black out) and will be ghost feeding every 3 days or so...

Also Dino outbreak appeared when the new coral was added... had none before with other corals added just these last 2.... I don’t care about the Dino outbreak my question was if a Dino outbreak could cause velvet seeing as velvet IS a Dino.....

 

[FrancineJ]

@HotRocks and @Humblefish are the real authorities on QT, try to post in one of the quarantine threads as well.

Take some photos of the fish in as close to white light as possible to help identify.

I have read all of himblefishes stuff but there’s not a lot of detail (like when to add what) and what to do if you can’t get certain things or only have 1 QT- I messaged him privately but nothing back yet...

I know I have some of the right stuff I just don’t know when to use it and in which order ect... and with only 1 QT tank....

I’ve found solutions but none that match mine especially because I think I have both (form of ich and brook) and I can’t get most of the stuff he mentions like I am getting the cupramine but have to wait for it.... these fish have been hanging on for a while so it makes no sense.... this was discovered like 5 days ago.... gramma is near death but the clown is eating and swimming still...

There was also a ton of flashing/scratching when in DT after it just “appeared” that’s again why I was thinking velvet but as they scratched now the skin looks like Brook but some spots are still there ?!!

I’m so lost and can’t find a way to treat both at the same time....

 

[andrewkw]

I already explained that cupramine is ordered but due to the holidays it won’t be here until the 2nd (fish stores in Canada are banning meds- had to order online)

They are only banning certain antibiotics without a prescription. Copper is not one of them. Not sure where you are in Canada but maybe try posting on a local forum someone can probably hook you up. I know you say small town but not sure how small of a town...

 

[FrancineJ]

They are even banning FW ich medication where I am.... even when you go to the big als Canada page and click on a med it takes you to a page where “it can not be displayed”

Again I have ordered ALL the stuff in my post.... never could get some of the stuff in Canada... like CP... unless you use the NLS stuff that doesn’t work...

So all of that will be coming but it’s a holiday and nothing has been running... even fish stores are not getting their deliveries so online/in stores are all out of stuff...

But everything I listed I have or is coming
I also believe I missed
Metro and focus on that list...
Methalyene blue (fritz)
And Kordon rid ich plus.... so I have or will have the entire list from right here and the original post... but you can not again, get CP here at all... no vet prescribes it and no Dr... it also has to come from a compound pharmacy which is like 4 hours from me....

 

[Gareth elliott]

If you have both velvet and brook, copper will suppress the brook. What you could do is before placing the fish in copper qt is treat for brook via bath in Formalin, personally i dont use Formaldehyde; or Metronidazole. Then place in qt for copper treatment. After copper treatment and fish are eating could run another Metronidazole bath.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’d treat with metroplex and cupramine concurrently. Reef rally bath would be nice if you can find.

If not I’d start with more freshwater dips until meds come.

Metro and cupramine should clear both up. Sorry for the troubles!

 

[Idoc]

Hopefully there's another reefer nearby that has the meds you need in order to start treatment soon.

In case you didn't see this post... good info on Brooklynella.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/#post-2913287

 

[Smo]

In an emergency you can perform a 5 min fresh water dip every 24 hrs to provide temporary relief and buy some time until you can get them in therapeutic Cu. Be sure to well aerate and temperature match. A 90 minute acriflavine (Ruby Reef Rally) would also help if you can get it.
I would also lower the temperature in the QT (70-72 deg F) and also salinity to 19-20 ppt to improve O2 content of the water. You can reduce salinity quickly.
You didn’t discuss your QT setup. Need a good amount of air thru a foam filter or air stone. Watch ammonia. You may need some large water changes ever other day.

 

[4FordFamily]

I would avoid lowering the temperature much, I think 76 is a good temp. Good advice above IMO^

 

[FrancineJ]

Can’t get ANYTHING with formalin in.... not enough to treat (in QT or dip/bath)


Ok I did not know that cupramine would do anything for brook.... I thought that only CP would treat them both.... not cupramine... but that’s great news....

Because that’s where my confusion was coming in.... if it does then I will just treat with cupramine and feed them with metro and focus mix (the NLS)? Sound good?

Or should I dose both in tank? From what I gather it doesn’t make a difference treatment wise (fed or into tank) but if I only have to figure out one calculation with water changes - the copper - that would be better lol

(From what I know and have learned I can give them the metro/focus food combo WHILE treating with copper.... )

Then when cupramine treatment is done and is removed I know I can treat with furan 2, Kanaplex and Prazipro (all at the same time if I’m not mistaken) and from what I’ve read on here.... for any remaining bacterial infections correct? - say from
where the cysts were attached or skin damage....and such.... or should they be done all separate? I read a post where the Fish Dr guy- @Humblefish said to use all 3 but it wasn’t clear in the post how to use all 3....

I don’t have much hope for Mr Gramma but I glad that everyone else is still eating.... he’s one tough gramma though... he’s holding on.... just barely

This is why I wondered if it was a strain of velvet caused by the Dino’s.... I know that velvet IS a Dino but I also know there is a strain (probably more than 1) that can be deadly.... we had nothing... everything was thriving in his tank but stupid mom (aka ME) thought oh what can 2 small zoa frags do.... they looked healthy except for 1 Nudi came off so I waited a week and dipped again and nothing came off so I figured it was the only one because the eggs would have hatched in a weeks time... and nearly ALL my corals in all my tanks have come from there and I’ve never had an issue before... but again whatever was up with these 2 (or at least 1 of them) it was hard to tell because I’m making him a zoa garden... these “odd” looking Dino’s started coming up... they had unusual structure... they would start looking like normal Dino’s (small brown fuzzy stuff with bubbles only on the sand bed- right where the zoas were and then rapidly expanded) then they started creating these long (2” or so) hair like structures that would sometimes stay stuck and sometimes come free... and the ones that were coming free were so long and hard that they wouldn’t even go through his overflow....and NONE of my snails would touch this Dino.... I’ve never seen anything like it.... they looked like long zoa “poop” but were nothing like it in consistency or anything.... very odd, again nothing I’ve ever come across.... anyway the tank is on 72hr complete black out right now to see if they will go away....

Once I uncover and turn the lights back on I’m going to do it slowly (start with just some blues and work up to just a couple hours of whites and see if they come back... if they do I’m going to be getting a good microscope and looking for an ID)

The other factor why I wondered if Dino’s could have caused this is because my gramma was one of those annoying ones that chose a spot he liked to sleep (it was a cave) and he spent all day (before he got sick) digging it all out picking the sand up with his mouth and spitting it out everywhere lol (which is more common then I thought, after I seen him doing it I researched it) but coincidentally where he would dig was close to where the Dino’s started to spread.... so it just seemed to fit why he got sick first and maybe so fast... but I really have no idea..... could be just random....

And yes unfortunately no reef rally....

 

[Humblefish]

I replied to your PM before I saw this thread. I'll copy & paste what I wrote below:

It sounds like you may have both velvet and brook in your son's tank.

The copper you have on order should take care of velvet, but you'll need either Hikari Metro + or Metroplex for brook. Both products are equally as good, so whichever you can get the quickest.

You can combine copper + metro; dosing copper until you reach therapeutic (0.5mg/L for Cupramine) and dosing metro every 48 hours for 10-14 days. This combination will treat: Ich, Velvet, Brook, Uronema.

I've included some links below with more information:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/metronidazole.298762/

^^ I should also add that neither medication is reef safe. So, you'll want to treat in a QT.

 

[Smo]

I don’t think your “Dino” problem has anything to do with Velvet—they are not the same. From your description you may have a cyano outbreak too.

 

[FrancineJ]

No it’s not Cyano... and they are related in a way I would think since velvet IS a Dino on its own but anyway... I was just trying to see if there was a correlation since they are both from the same family (velvet and Dino’s)

I am actually keeping the temp at 75F because I know the prime reproduction rate is 77 and 80 something.....I slowly reduced to this temp over last couple days and it’s stable there now....

As mentioned in the first post... I gave the fish a freshwater dip (5 minutes each) before they went into the QT.... I have read (a couple times and a couple places) that all it does it knock off the spores and seeing as the majority came off that first dip it’s not recommended to keep fresh water dipping them as it’s too stressful (unless your attempting some kind of TTM which I’m not).... it was in one of @Humblefish posts.... that he doesn’t recommend several FW dips.... am I right?


I’ve mentioned a couple times now I can’t get any rally (believe me I’d love to) but what I have mentioned is all I have and can get... I didn’t know if Melafix or pimafix or Paraguard or anything like that in a saltwater bath would be better and less stressful for them....

Yes the tank is well airated....sorry I did not discuss my QT because I know that part is ok.... I understand how everything works just there’s so many things that can’t be combined with copper... also I’ve read that hypo salinity does not help much so I think I’ll just keep them where they are for less stress... it’s not high anyway I lowered it a bit but it’s still at 1.022..... and yes I have the ammonia alert badge that detects the slightest hint of free ammonia and I know they work as I keep them in all my tanks... FW and SW.... just for quick reference....
I am also taking the time to use Bio-Spira to get some stuff seeded (main filter is an AC)... they have all been in there for 5ish days now and no ammonia yet... you can’t over dose on Bio-Spira so people often just throw a dose in every day and it will keep it down (I’ve cycled a 32g tank in 3 days with it before) so it’s pretty good stuff... I know some of the meds will knock out a lot of BB but if I keep adding bits at a time I know it has worked for others and I’m keeping my feeding to a minimum but using selcon and NLS so quality over quantity is what I’m aiming for....

I’ve actually asked seachem and just so people are aware:** Cupramine is NOT meant to treat Brooklynella.... there words not mine (but I’ve seen different advice on there) but who answered me said that no it will not help and metro needs to be added as @Humblefish advice as well.....

I think that answered everyone’s comments
Thank you guys for all your help so far!!

Sorry for any typos I was trying to type fast lol

 

[Smo]

OK. Sounds like you have a good plan and have done all you can until the Cu and metro arrive.

 

[Gareth elliott]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

This thread should help with the dino problem in the dt. It will be more difficult to keep nutrients up with no fish in the system during fallow period, so test po4 and no3 often, never let let them bottom out during treatment.

 

[FrancineJ]

Everything that bad with my tanks ALWAYS happens on a long weekend... everytime... last time a few years ago I had ich in my FW tank... thankfully I know how to handle that with just table salt (unionized) so that wasn’t as bad lol I would have had all this stuff by now if it wasn’t for it being Xmas and New Years.... ugh....


Yes I have like 17-20 snails and a Randall’s shrimp and corals in there and I’m ghost feeding so I’m thinking that should be ok... plus I’m not doing water changes right now and all that’s in there now is floss- purigen is gone and chemipure is gone... so I’ll just monitor my nitrAtes for Randy’s sake but I’m hoping that maybe the black out will help because my snails have been out in full force since we shut down the lights and covered the tank.... and with no water changes for a couple weeks it should be good

And I have 2 buckets full of freshly mixed SW ready to go for the QT Incase the ammonia rises.... one thing I learned through this process is that (and this is from a marine biologist) you really only have to monitor your PH and free ammonia (the badge) they said not even to bother testing for nitrites or nitrAtes in the QT.... I guess maybe because the meds kill off most of the BB anyway... but they said during a hospital tank situation to just use the ammonia alert badge and change it as soon as it goes up to the first warning... and that way it will be easier to control the ammonia because your getting it right away... instead others were waiting until it was in the danger section.... but I would have thought that testing for nitrites and nitrAtes would have been important too... guess not.... lol

 

[FrancineJ]

GOOD NEWS! Got at least the cupramine and the test kit today! Half dose has been administered!!

Now just have to wait and cross our fingers and see what happens when we bring the dose up in 48 hrs and get our metro on Wednesday!!

(Also I stocked up on many products lol any Canadian sites that still had some stuff left I bought up @Humblefish ”medicine cabinet” post lol)

Gramma is still hanging on.... very very rough shape but he’s still with us!

Thank you everyone for all your help!! I really appreciate everything that everyone contributed..... I can’t stand to see my son like this! He’s been so worried

Will keep you updated on what happens