Do you actually QT or treat without symptoms?

[NancyFish]

A
As Jay mentioned above, symptoms can go unnoticed and end up in your display tank.

Are smaller fish more delicate to these processes? Like the clown fish we just got is only <1” and quite expensive for one of our first fish.. I’d hate to lose him over treatment but then again I get not wanting problems down the line.

 

[nereefpat]

I QT and treat for worms (including flukes) with Prazi and ich & velvet with Copper Power. I keep a cycled QT going.

All medicine has a risk vs benefit that you have to weigh. I live in the middle of nowhere, as far as fish stores, so it's very difficult to acquire livestock. I can not take the risk of something getting into my display. Copper Power or Coppersafe (instead of ionic copper like Cupramine) and Prazi Pro won't harm fishes, and it keeps the biggest killers (ich, velvet, & flukes) out.

 

[Naekuh]

depends on fish... depends if i feel lucky.

Tangs... always and i mean ALWAYS, yet i still get ICH.... @#$#@!
Anthias.. again ALWAYS, and ALWAYS because URO will end the tank forever with damsels and anthias.

Wrasses... they are all wrasses, so i will plop them in after observation, but they end up jumping out of the tank on their own over time.

 

[NancyFish]

I QT and treat for worms (including flukes) with Prazi and ich & velvet with Copper Power. I keep a cycled QT going.

All medicine has a risk vs benefit that you have to weigh. I live in the middle of nowhere, as far as fish stores, so it's very difficult to acquire livestock. I can not take the risk of something getting into my display. Copper Power or Coppersafe (instead of ionic copper like Cupramine) and Prazi Pro won't harm fishes, and it keeps the biggest killers (ich, velvet, & flukes) out.

So even though the clowns are around 1 & 1.5” , if they’re eating and swimming, I should be safe to do the copper and Prazi regiment in the 10g qt?

Any way I can make it even safer, maybe add another air source? I definitely want to make the tank safe for down the road, but also anxious to add them to the display tank. (Our first salt fish and hoping to not lose them).

 

[Jekyl]

So even though the clowns are around 1 & 1.5” , if they’re eating and swimming, I should be safe to do the copper and Prazi regiment in the 10g qt?

Any way I can make it even safer, maybe add another air source? I definitely want to make the tank safe for down the road, but also anxious to add them to the display tank. (Our first salt fish and hoping to not lose them).

The link I posted earlier details the best method of setting up a quarantine. Other helpful information can be found in both of these links contained in the stickies at the top.

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

New to Saltwater & Reef Aquariums? Post Here

If you're new to the Saltwater Hobby and have questions please post them here. So you finally decided to take the plunge. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask!

www.reef2reef.com

 

[nereefpat]

So even though the clowns are around 1 & 1.5” , if they’re eating and swimming, I should be safe to do the copper and Prazi regiment in the 10g qt?

Any way I can make it even safer, maybe add another air source? I definitely want to make the tank safe for down the road, but also anxious to add them to the display tank. (Our first salt fish and hoping to not lose them).

If you have a cycled 10 gallon to QT the clowns, you are off to a great start.

The first thing is to get them eating well and condition them to the tank. If you want to extend that to a week or 10 days, that isn't a bad idea as long as there aren't disease symptoms. You can even grow them out a bit.

Aeration is a good idea. Extra is fine.

The other thing to watch for with clowns is brook.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I have followed this for 4 decades.
I don’t treat with anything unless I have good reason to. Plus, in Canada, we are very limited to access the good meds anyways so not much choice.

In all that time I’ve had to treat ick twice.

My QT is glass, saltwater, heater, light, homes.
In 30 days, if there is no sign of anything and eat very well, in they go.

I stopped treating a few years ago unless symptoms are observed. I do observation only now. I've had too many fish die in QT for unknown reasons.

This, for me too. I don't know of any other animal hobby where WC animals are so extensively shotgunned by keepers of all skill levels (including rank novices) in the absence of symptoms or even any attempt at diagnosis (PCR screening, skin scrapes), and in the face of nonnegligible losses of apparently healthy animals during treatment.

I'm very sympathetic to wanting to keep all pathogens out of a tank, but not if the cost (in medication-related losses, or other losses stemming from the treatment process) is too high. I think that outbreaks of ick or similar might be well addressed by improving husbandry standards overall (which would have a lot of benefit on top of decreased risk of disease outbreaks); one reason these fish need to be so aggressively cleaned up is that they're going to be, e.g. one of six tangs in an undersized tank, or the pair of clowns that goes in the little AIO the day after it cycles, or the PBT purchased by someone who's never kept any tang before, much less a sensitive species.

Shoutout to @NancyFish for distinguishing between "actual QT" and medicating. 'Quarantine' is a waiting period during which the subject is observed for symptoms in isolation from other animals. Medicating is something more. When we use 'QT' to mean something more than it is, that's a little misleading since 'quarantine' implies something inconvenient but not aggressive. I'm sure this terminology won't change on my advice, but it is something to think about.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This, for me too. I don't know of any other animal hobby where WC animals are so extensively shotgunned by keepers of all skill levels (including rank novices) in the absence of symptoms or even any attempt at diagnosis (PCR screening, skin scrapes), and in the face of nonnegligible losses of apparently healthy animals during treatment.

I'm very sympathetic to wanting to keep all pathogens out of a tank, but not if the cost (in medication-related losses, or other losses stemming from the treatment process) is too high. I think that outbreaks of ick or similar might be well addressed by improving husbandry standards overall (which would have a lot of benefit on top of decreased risk of disease outbreaks); one reason these fish need to be so aggressively cleaned up is that they're going to be, e.g. one of six tangs in an undersized tank, or the pair of clowns that goes in the little AIO the day after it cycles, or the PBT purchased by someone who's never kept any tang before, much less a sensitive species.

Shoutout to @NancyFish for distinguishing between "actual QT" and medicating. 'Quarantine' is a waiting period during which the subject is observed for symptoms in isolation from other animals. Medicating is something more. When we use 'QT' to mean something more than it is, that's a little misleading since 'quarantine' implies something inconvenient but not aggressive. I'm sure this terminology won't change on my advice, but it is something to think about.

Just to add my opinion - "observational quarantine" only protects the fish in the final display tank, it leaves the new fish at risk for an epizootic before they even leave the QT. There are some diseases that are so common in the supply chain, that fish really must be treated proactively for them. The big four are Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, gill flukes and Neobenedenia. Chronic infections of these easily pass through even a 45 day observational quarantine, and right into your DT.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I never QT'd and have been very lucky over 25 years. I don't have the space or patience. I now will only purchase fish from QT vendors. Maybe not 100% foolproof but I think a reasonable compromise.

Jay - you have me second guessing this every time I read one of these threads and your comments.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I never QT'd and have been very lucky over 25 years. I don't have the space or patience. I now will only purchase fish from QT vendors. Maybe not 100% foolproof but I think a reasonable compromise.

Jay - you have me second guessing this every time I read one of these threads and your comments.

Second guessing? Pre quarantined fish are a good compromise. Even the strict quarantine process we advocate for here is not foolproof - it doesn't treat for Brooklynella for example.

 

[Paul B]

My method seems to be foolproof, even for Brooklynella, for at least half a century, but it could crash tomorrow. Maybe because I was born in Brooklyn.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Second guessing? Pre quarantined fish are a good compromise. Even the strict quarantine process we advocate for here is not foolproof - it doesn't treat for Brooklynella for example.

I think partly because I have to blindly trust the process and the vendor (which I do at this point).

 

[Paul B]

I think partly because I have to blindly trust the process and the vendor (which I do at this point).

I think because I keep my fish immune as they are in the sea.

 

[Skep18]

Since day 1, I've prophylactically treated with Copper Power and PraziPro every fish that comes into my house.

 

[Reefering1]

Since day 1, I've prophylactically treated with Copper Power and PraziPro every fish that comes into my house.

How many have died in this process?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think because I keep my fish immune as they are in the sea.

While I am not sure I agree with the logic, it certainly does appear to have worked for you long term and I would not begin to argue otherwise. I am not sure that I have ever lost a fish to disease, but that may be my ignorance of disease indications over the decades and dumb luck. I have certainly never had a tank wide problem or multiple deaths, etc. It also may be for the very reasons that you have not and you have been right all along!

 

[Skep18]

How many have died in this process?

Its been 6 years so you'll forgive my cloudy memory but I haven't lost fish to treatment to my recollection. I've lost 2 whole orders to disease outbreak that showed up within the first week or two of QT. Brook and velvet IIRC. Beyond that, I've recently lost a wrasse prior to treatment due to some mystery disease or injury. Can't think of much beyond that. I might have lost an anthias to popeye years ago while still in QT. But throughout my medication treatments I can only recall maybe one fish responding negatively to treatment via loss of appetite. That was short lived though and came around to eating after a few days.

Whether its luck, prophylactic treatment or "fish immunity", I've never seen signs of ich on any fish in my DT nor any other communicable disease that I am educated enough on to know to look for. As you see above, there are a lot of opinions out there but I personally see maybe the biggest benefit to QT is watching the fish for some period of time before t hey go to the DT. Per my "lost batches" above, if the fish come in with a parasite/disease that spreads and gets worse, you get to see that in the controlled environment and have a lesser chance of it making it into your DT.

Likewise, as it may be noteworthy, a rough guess is maybe 10-15% of my fish orders have had a specimen come in with some parasite/disease. I buy from either a LFS or Live Aquaria just out of habit. I've just recently bought fish again for the first time in maybe 3-4 years but lately I have not encountered visible (to me) signs of disease/parasites in my recent 3 or so fish orders.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

I do a 2 week observation, then treat in a seperate QT if needed

 

[Skep18]

I do a 2 week observation, then treat in a seperate QT if needed

If I were going to change my protocol, this would probably be what I would go to based on my small sample size, anecdotal personal experience. I think this would handle most situations I have encountered that I have had reason to suspect. This of course wouldn't account for any unseen issues that prophylactic treatment may or may not catch. But that seems like more of a faith conversation that demonstrable proof, to me at least. As before, I think you'll find greatly differing opinions on here.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Pre quarantined fish are a good compromise.

Sincere question: do you think this a compromise, or might it be the best option?

Certainly more fish make it through a treatment process when this process is guided by experienced and knowledgeable keepers who have decent facilities and supplies (as opposed to a hospital tank set up yesterday with equipment that happened to be on hand, and the meds are hopefully gonna be here day after tomorrow).

Large enough operations could have a dedicated person/team that has formal education in the relevant matters, and can concentrate on the task at hand (rather than me sorting through "information" online, and trying to deal with all this after work and before baseball practice and oh I forgot to cook the kids' dinner). They could also be set up to do some testing on incoming fish to know how to tailor their treatment protocols to some degree, in order to reduce treatment-related losses and costs.

Buying pre-treated fish would also eliminate shipping to the end user fish that are possibly fighting some infection, which would reduce compounding stressors.

Buying pre-treated fish would also make visible financial costs that are currently hidden -- cost of QT/treatment, cost of lost livestock -- by baking these costs into the selling price. If the ultimate overall price tag on a disease prone and sensitive fish species after treatment and losses is, say, $500, it seems more beneficial overall to price them at $500 than to sell them for $50 and have half of buyers not know that they'll lose 4 out of every five they buy and have to jump through a bunch of expensive hoops to get the fifth one healthy and eating.