DIY Lanthanum Dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In the past, I have dosed too much, too fast and watched my wrasses hyperventilate for a few hours. It can be dangerous if done haphazardly.

Since then, I’ve dosing lanthanum daily into a reactor and it has been life changing. I use a Kamoer doser and spread it over 24 daily doses directly (through a tee) into a standard reactor with a pleated filter. It keeps my phosphate right where I want it.

@Randy Holmes-Farley where would one acquire the lanthanum you use in your recipe? I currently use Seaklear but I wonder if there’s a cheaper option as I dose ~5ml/day

I doubt there is anything much cheaper than Seaklear, but I've not looked.

There may be purer lanthanum sources, however.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmmm...in my experience, definitely a barrier when it reaches about 0.10 PPM.
Perhaps it's because I used a proprietary blend (Phosphate RX) and not pure Lanthanam Chloride?
I wouldn't have made the claim if it had not been that two prominent people in the hobby had similar observations.

I don't think there's anything special about that product, and I expect it can drive phosphate below 0.1 ppm.

 

[David S]

I don't think there's anything special about that product, and I expect it can drive phosphate below 0.1 ppm.

OK
I'll use the product for several days prior to my next ICP test and not use any other Phosphate reducing procedures and see what happens.

 

[shakey]

Very interested read. I'm considering it but it seems to be 50/50 for against it. Thanks for all the input from all of you. I'm still on the fence, following this thread and researching some more. I'm trying to get to .05 and stay there rock solid. My tank varies from.03-.1. This is probably OK but I'm a control freak and would love to lock it in SAFELY though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interested read. I'm considering it but it seems to be 50/50 for against it. Thanks for all the input from all of you. I'm still on the fence, following this thread and researching some more. I'm trying to get to .05 and stay there rock solid. My tank varies from.03-.1. This is probably OK but I'm a control freak and would love to lock it in SAFELY though.

IMO, I would not do anything about those levels.

 

[shakey]

IMO, I would not do anything about those levels.

Thanks.
Coming from you I will think I'm doing OK then.

 

[David S]

Very interested read. I'm considering it but it seems to be 50/50 for against it. Thanks for all the input from all of you. I'm still on the fence, following this thread and researching some more. I'm trying to get to .05 and stay there rock solid. My tank varies from.03-.1. This is probably OK but I'm a control freak and would love to lock it in SAFELY though.

I totally agree with Randy.
Those are great numbers.
To try to be at .05 is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle.
I used Rowaphos for many years and it always kept my Phosphate well below 0.10.
But I got sick of changing it out and cleaning it.
I switched to a bacterial product (PNS Pro Bio) a couple of years ago and since that time my Phosphate levels, based on ICP testing were the same as yours.
That is until my most recent ICP, a couple of months ago, when the Phosphate rose to 0.16 PPM.
I will be submitting an ICP next week and what I intend to do, is 3 days prior I will suspend using the PNS product and do a daily dose of Lanthanum, instead, and we'll see what happens to the PO4 levels.

 

[pixelhustler]

I totally agree with Randy.
Those are great numbers.
To try to be at .05 is like trying to catch lightning in a bottle.
I used Rowaphos for many years and it always kept my Phosphate well below 0.10.
But I got sick of changing it out and cleaning it.
I switched to a bacterial product (PNS Pro Bio) a couple of years ago and since that time my Phosphate levels, based on ICP testing were the same as yours.
That is until my most recent ICP, a couple of months ago, when the Phosphate rose to 0.16 PPM.
I will be submitting an ICP next week and what I intend to do, is 3 days prior I will suspend using the PNS product and do a daily dose of Lanthanum, instead, and we'll see what happens to the PO4 levels.

My phosphate is very, very stable as I dose lanthanum (diluted solution) 24x day with a Kamoer pump. As long as I don’t change my feeding (2 frozen cubes/day + 3 spoonfuls of benepets/week) it won’t move much. Typically .02-.05 these days, and the fluctuations might very well be the margin of error on my test kit. Dosing lanthanum had been the single most significant improvement to the health of my tank.

I believe it’s also safer to spread out the dose this way, as less flocculant will be suspended in the water column. I wonder if it could be dosed directly into the sump this way.
I wonder, @Randy Holmes-Farley are there negative long-term effects with flocculant building up in the system?

 

[gbroadbridge]

My phosphate is very, very stable as I dose lanthanum (diluted solution) 24x day with a Kamoer pump. As long as I don’t change my feeding (2 frozen cubes/day + 3 spoonfuls of benepets/week) it won’t move much. Typically .02-.05 these days, and the fluctuations might very well be the margin of error on my test kit. Dosing lanthanum had been the single most significant improvement to the health of my tank.

I believe it’s also safer to spread out the dose this way, as less flocculant will be suspended in the water column. I wonder if it could be dosed directly into the sump this way.
I wonder, @Randy Holmes-Farley are there negative long-term effects with flocculant building up in the system?

I'm interested in what dilution you are using?

I'm about to test this method myself and am trying to decide on a dilution.

 

[pixelhustler]

I'm interested in what dilution you are using?

I'm about to test this method myself and am trying to decide on a dilution.

I dose 25ml/day of solution. My dilution is 100 ml of Seaklear in 500ml of RODI. My system’s water volume is somewhere between 50-70g.
I dose straight into a reactor so it catches most of the flocculant. The only reason I dilute is because, at full concentration, the tip of the outlet tube for the lanthanum gets clogged much faster as it reacts with saltwater.
If you dose into a filter sock you don’t need to dilute, just spread the dose if possible and make sure the filter sock has a low micron rating.
All the horror stories I read dosed too much, too fast, without enough filtration. IMO, the water shouldn’t change colors to milky white.

 

[David S]

My phosphate is very, very stable as I dose lanthanum (diluted solution) 24x day with a Kamoer pump. As long as I don’t change my feeding (2 frozen cubes/day + 3 spoonfuls of benepets/week) it won’t move much. Typically .02-.05 these days, and the fluctuations might very well be the margin of error on my test kit. Dosing lanthanum had been the single most significant improvement to the health of my tank.

I believe it’s also safer to spread out the dose this way, as less flocculant will be suspended in the water column. I wonder if it could be dosed directly into the sump this way.
I wonder, @Randy Holmes-Farley are there negative long-term effects with flocculant building up in the system?

I believe the flocculant is removed via a Protein Skimmer.
It's also best to dose the Lanthanum into the skimmer.
I believe mechanical filtration helps to remove flocculant, as well.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I dose 25ml/day of solution. My dilution is 100 ml of Seaklear in 500ml of RODI. My system’s water volume is somewhere between 50-70g.
I dose straight into a reactor so it catches most of the flocculant. The only reason I dilute is because, at full concentration, the tip of the outlet tube for the lanthanum gets clogged much faster as it reacts with saltwater.
If you dose into a filter sock you don’t need to dilute, just spread the dose if possible and make sure the filter sock has a low micron rating.
All the horror stories I read dosed too much, too fast, without enough filtration. IMO, the water shouldn’t change colors to milky white.

Thanks. I've been testing using 3 drops of Phosphate RX - dosing into the overflow which heads into roller mat using 17 micron rolls, no cloudiness at all in the tank and the mat advances about 20 seconds after dosing.

No SeaKlear where I live, so I'll be mixing up a solution using reagent grade Lanthanum (III) Chloride Heptahydrate.

Probably dose overnight using an accurate dosing head.

Just working out a suitable dilution.

 

[David S]

I don't think there's anything special about that product, and I expect it can drive phosphate below 0.1 ppm.

Randy,
When I made my comment about 0.10 PPM barrier, it wasn't just from personal experience.
A few months later, two well known hobbyists made the same claim.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate the webcast where I heard their comments.
However, I did locate this article (see link below) which extols the virtues of using Lanthanum Chloride to reduce Phosphate Levels.
(It was published in 2009, before current Lanthanum products where made specifically for the hobby.)
The author suggests that Lanthanum is extremely effective at reducing high PO4 levels but not so much when the levels are moderate.
He recommended using other "absorbers" to get the PO4 levels below 0.2 ppm

Foiling Phosphate: A Look at Lanthanum Chloride Use in the Aquarium - CORAL Magazine

Look back to the introduction of lanthanum chloride as a phosphate reducer in marine reef aquariums, first discussed in CORAL Magazine in late 2009.

www.reef2rainforest.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
When I made my comment about 0.10 PPM barrier, it wasn't just from personal experience.
A few months later, two well known hobbyists made the same claim.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate the webcast where I heard their comments.
However, I did locate this article (see link below) which extols the virtues of using Lanthanum Chloride to reduce Phosphate Levels.
(It was published in 2009, before current Lanthanum products where made specifically for the hobby.)
The author suggests that Lanthanum is extremely effective at reducing high PO4 levels but not so much when the levels are moderate.
He recommended using other "absorbers" to get the PO4 levels below 0.2 ppm

Foiling Phosphate: A Look at Lanthanum Chloride Use in the Aquarium - CORAL Magazine

Look back to the introduction of lanthanum chloride as a phosphate reducer in marine reef aquariums, first discussed in CORAL Magazine in late 2009.

www.reef2rainforest.com

OK, but lots and lots of people here have driven it lower, sometimes too low, and based on the solubility of lanthanum phosphate, it can be much lower.

It certainly is established to drop phosphate below 0.01 ppm in fresh water.

IMO, if folks did not see it go lower with more dosing, it was for one or both of 2 reasons:

1,. They didn't add enough
2. Phosphate release from rocks and sand (and digested foods) replace the lowered levels faster than they were adding lanthanum

 

[David S]

OK, but lots and lots of people here have driven it lower, sometimes too low, and based on the solubility of lanthanum phosphate, it can be much lower.

It certainly is established to drop phosphate below 0.01 ppm in fresh water.

IMO, if folks did not see it go lower with more dosing, it was for one or both of 2 reasons:

1,. They didn't add enough
2. Phosphate release from rocks and sand (and digested foods) replace the lowered levels faster than they were adding lanthanum

Thanks Randy

So if I'm understanding you correctly, is it that GFO is more aggressive in reducing PO4 at those levels?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy

So if I'm understanding you correctly, is it that GFO is more aggressive in reducing PO4 at those levels?

I don't think such a conclusion makes sense. ALL binders will reduce phosphate proportionally to how much is added and how often it is replaced.

Nearly every lanthanum ion added will precipitate phosphate. A few will precipitate as lanthanum carbonate or lanthanum oxide as phospahte gets lower and lower, but the solubility of lanthanum phosphate is so low that adding sufficient lanthanum will drive phosphate far below detectable levels.

It might be easier to use small amounts of lanthanum than GFO, but it is not less aggressive.

 

[David S]

Ok
I'll be sending in an ICP sample tomorrow.
My last ICP indicated 0.16 PPM of Phosphate. That was 2 months ago.
I have used a Bacterial product, instead of GFO for the better part of 2 years, which kept my PO4 well below 0.10.
The ICP reading could have been an aberration but I want to test the efficacy of the Lanthanum based "Phosphate RX".
I want to get down to about 0.05 PO4.
According to Larry L's calculator, 4 drops should bring it down to the desired level.
However, I am using half the dosage to avoid any stress to my Yellow Tang.

Randy, I know you are not a fan of the calculator, as it is based on the manufacturers, somewhat optimistic recommendations, which is why I've been dosing the Phosphate RX for the better part of a week.
During this time, I have abstained from using any bacterial products.
However, I did place a media bag containing a small amount of Purit in my skimmer, for a few hours, to remove a greenish color in my tank water.
I will let everyone know the results of the ICP test, which I expect will be available sometime next week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok
I'll be sending in an ICP sample tomorrow.
My last ICP indicated 0.16 PPM of Phosphate. That was 2 months ago.
I have used a Bacterial product, instead of GFO for the better part of 2 years, which kept my PO4 well below 0.10.
The ICP reading could have been an aberration but I want to test the efficacy of the Lanthanum based "Phosphate RX".
I want to get down to about 0.05 PO4.
According to Larry L's calculator, 4 drops should bring it down to the desired level.
However, I am using half the dosage to avoid any stress to my Yellow Tang.

Randy, I know you are not a fan of the calculator, as it is based on the manufacturers, somewhat optimistic recommendations, which is why I've been dosing the Phosphate RX for the better part of a week.
During this time, I have abstained from using any bacterial products.
However, I did place a media bag containing a small amount of Purit in my skimmer, for a few hours, to remove a greenish color in my tank water.
I will let everyone know the results of the ICP test, which I expect will be available sometime next week.

My only concern with the calculator, assuming it was made correctly, which I do not know, is it assumes all the lanthanum ends up as lanthanum phosphate, rather than lanthanum carbonate.

In that sense, it can only be an overestimate of the effect, and the effect will be greatly reduced in most cases anyway by phosphate coming off rock and sand, and the immediate resupply of phosphate from foods being digested.

it's like a patient on dialysis having blood phosphate reduced during the dialysis, but at the very next meal it pops back up again.

 

[jda]

I suspect that raw LC can be skimmed or filtered before it has a chance to interact with enough water, if levels are low. I can assure you that LC can take levels to 0 PPB on Hannah Ultra Low if you give it enough time to contact. I have documented this many times in Rubbermade tubs where I refresh abused live rock. I have a tub now with 0 ppb for about 6 months, but it took me almost a year to get it there before the rocks had no po4 left to unbind.

There is some sparse evidence that LC might be better when levels get low since it only appears to bind orthophosphate and leaves metaphosphate alone. Most corals and algae can use metaphosphate and some even seem to prefer it over ortho. GFO appears to bind both. Some of what I read needed to be translated and there is not a ton of it, so there is not a wide breath of science here. It does kinda go along with the many hobbyist anecdotes that GFO has bleached and killed corals when used too aggressively or with too low of residual po4.

Off topic, but an accidental experiment showed that it takes about 3 days for metaphosphate to fully break down into orthophosphate in saltwater. ...so if you only ever remove ortho, then you always have an available form of phosphorous for your tank.

 

[David S]

My ICP results came in:
See attached:

Shared Results · Reef Labs Portal

app.reef-labs.com

I was wrong. Using Phosphate RX at the recommended level did, apparently, knock the PO4 down well below 0.10 PPM. (~0.04).
Also forgot to dose it on the final day.
Will definitely use as an occasional supplement to my bacterial product.

Curious that I was considered "deficient" in Phosphorus (0.14 PPM) yet smack dab in the middle of the "optimal" level for Phosphate.