DIY Lanthanum Dosing

[BeanAnimal]

Used lc 20 or 30 times over the past 5 years with no apparent problems.
Used brightwell phosphate e and phosban L.
Do not reduce po4 more than 0.5 ppm per day. Never use it below 0.2 ppm phosphate to try to insure all the lc reacts quickly.
Lanthanum chloride reacts with phosphate to form a flocculant, or precipatate that can mostly be filtered with a 5 micron sock. Run a skimmer at the same time.
As others have said dilute 50:1, and drip into the overflow over 4 to 8 hours.
If you see cloudy water in your tank when using lc, it is not being filtered effectively by the sox, stop and check your methods.
I think minimizing the amount that reaches the dt by 1) dripping into overflow 2) filter sox, 3) dilution over hours is best practice, regardless of manufacturers instructions.
Lc is a good tool that requires a safe dosing method.

I tried several different setups, but in the end was dosing into my 6' tall recirculating skimmer intake and the output of that was going through 3 nested filter socks (I think 50, 10, 5) that fed back into input side of the sump.

 

[Thales]

Under no circumstances would I recommend dosing Lanth Cl directly into a tank with animals. I don't even feel good about it being done in a filter sock directly in the tank. The only reason I posted was to let Bean Animal know that I found a way that I felt was 'safe' - very diluted, very minimal dosing, in a way to seems to make it more likely that none of the product or end product make it to where it can harm animals, and a way that takes the long view on results. Messing with Lanth Cl can/has/does kill and hurt animals, and the reefing community should not be flippant about it's use.

The only reason I did it at all was because my tank ran high phosphate (1.78) and I wanted to see if bringing it down could be safe, easy, and would make some kind of difference to the animals. I think my method is on the safer side, but I really see no difference in the health of my animals so I kinda don't recommend it at all when it got down to .1-.2 ...kinda just no reason to chase numbers.

YMMV

 

[BeanAnimal]

Under no circumstances would I recommend dosing Lanth Cl directly into a tank with animals. I don't even feel good about it being done in a filter sock directly in the tank. The only reason I posted was to let Bean Animal know that I found a way that I felt was 'safe' - very diluted, very minimal dosing, in a way to seems to make it more likely that none of the product or end product make it to where it can harm animals, and a way that takes the long view on results. Messing with Lanth Cl can/has/does kill and hurt animals, and the reefing community should not be flippant about it's use.

The only reason I did it at all was because my tank ran high phosphate (1.78) and I wanted to see if bringing it down could be safe, easy, and would make some kind of difference to the animals. I think my method is on the safer side, but I really see no difference in the health of my animals so I kinda don't recommend it at all when it got down to .1-.2 ...kinda just no reason to chase numbers.

YMMV

Pretty much 100% agree and your feelings, experience and observations parallel mine.

I choose to offer the ‘unsafe’ bias based on the fact that almost every LaCl thread I see is full of terrible dosing advice And pure ignorance to the danger.

If I was in that same, through the roof phosphate boat as you. Lesson learned, don’t ever let it get that high again!

 

[Dave-T]

Can someone explain why you would even consider lanthanum instead of just using GFO?

 

[radiata]

Can someone explain why you would even consider lanthanum instead of just using GFO?

Does the usage of GFO have any real metrics supporting it? Like those metrics vs. our own frail human observations? I'd be really interested in it if it indeed did!

 

[radiata]

Hi Randy!

Thank you for the appropriate analyses that you, as usual, offer as a great starting point for our intelligent discussions of any issue posted here. Please continue to offer your ideas to us, and please keep up your work with your observations of the chemical world as it relates to your reefer friends here in this forum!

Again, many thanks,
Bob

 

[Pistondog]

Can someone explain why you would even consider lanthanum instead of just using GFO?

LC Instant results. Gfo takes weeks and will release po4 back if po4 water concentration lowers. LC more efficient at higher po4 concentrations.
Lc pretty specific at what is removed, po4 and some calcium.
Gfo also removes some zinc, copper and manganese.
Certainly dont use LC if you dont feel comfortable.

 

[FranklinDattein]

LC Instant results. Gfo takes weeks and will release po4 back if po4 water concentration lowers. LC more efficient at higher po4 concentrations.
Lc pretty specific at what is removed, po4 and some calcium.
Gfo also removes some zinc, copper and manganese.
Certainly dont use LC if you dont feel comfortable.

I would add to that list that some folks, including me, have noticed recurrent tissue striping in SPS when running GFO.

 

[David S]

Can someone explain why you would even consider lanthanum instead of just using GFO?

Lanthanum is a simple dose.
GFO involves, most often, running through a reactor, which is a pain.
In addition, GFO needs to be cleaned prior to use, which is a major annoyance.
Major benefit of using GFO is whereas Lanthanum will only bring you down to about 0.10 mg of PO4, GFO can take you down close to 0.

 

[Boreas_SA]

I run LaCl into a 5 micron filter sock in the overflow box, fed by a small dedicated pump. The sock still blocks up quite a bit, and quickly, and when it does a white film starts forming on my display glass, which can only be removed with an magic eraser. This is the most annoying part for me, the tangs seem ok for now (regal tang, YT, bristletooth), but if sock overflows it goes through a filter roller, over an ATS, pass the skimmer and through the entire sump before going into the display again, so maybe that helps. Works amazingly well though, dropped my phosphate from 8(ICP result, don't ask how much neglect there has to be to get there, let's just say our third child was born around that time) down to 0.04 over the course of a few months once all the phos have finished leeching out of the aragonite and LR, also run GFO for the last bit, seems lacl bottomed the phos at around 0.12, GFO seems to do the rest. It is a bit of a cheaper route than GFO too (or more bang for buck even if you regenerate the GFO with sodium hydroxide), well here where I stay anyway, costs around $100 for about 2 or 3 years' supply of the crystals from a glass manufacturing place. Mixes it at 5gram/liter, dose around 200ml on a 100 gallon tank per day. I have around 35 fish in there, and feed very heavily. On a lightly stocked tank GFO is probably a better bet, and less effort to make sure the filter socks stay clean.

 

[ReefingFamily]

Noone is sparing with you.

Sharing your experience is welcome.

Claiming that my experience is misleading is not productive and in claiming that my post is misleading you are not providing my view the same respect which everyone has showed your point of view.

That is where we differ. I respect your view but disagree with it. You do not respect my view and labled it as missleading because you do not agree with it.

I am not debating anything. I am sharing my experience. You do not need to agree with my experience for it to be valid.

I also do not require your validation.

To call my post misleading is inappropriate at least.

Enjoy not using Lanthinum Chloride as it apparently is not for you. This does not affect me in the slightest. The rest of us would probably bennifit from furthering the discussion about using Lanthinum Chloride.

Sean,

Please go back and read the original post from BeanAnimal. He called your statement misleading and not your experience. Let's move forward and get past this so as not to detract from Randy's amazing work, experience and knowledge.

thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can someone explain why you would even consider lanthanum instead of just using GFO?

Each method has pros and cons.

pros for lanthanum include no need for a reactor and it is much cheaper than other binders.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Major benefit of using GFO is whereas Lanthanum will only bring you down to about 0.10 mg of PO4, GFO can take you down close to 0.

That's not true. Lanthanum easily takes phosphate to below 0.01 ppm.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does the usage of GFO have any real metrics supporting it? Like those metrics vs. our own frail human observations? I'd be really interested in it if it indeed did!

I'm not sure I understand the question.

In any real reeef tank, all binders will seem a lot less effective than they really are since removing phosphate from the water will allow release of substantial phosphate from rock and sand, causing folks to need much more of any binder, especially any that work slowly.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's not true. Lanthanum easily takes phosphate to below 0.01 ppm.

I would think that it can take to 0.00

The issue (to me) being that the lower the P04 levels, the more there is a chance of free Lanthanum in the system. I think this is where the serious danger is. There is some postulation that this is where the gill damage comes from. I am not sure if the Lanthanum does it directly somehow, or of it collects there and reacts with P04 in the gill structure causing damage (blockage?).

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

In any real reeef tank, all binders will seem a lot less effective than they really are since removing phosphate from the water will allow release of substantial phosphate from rock and sand, causing folks to need much more of any binder, especially any that work slowly.

I think he may have been asking if the removal rate/capacity of GFO can in some way be quantified.

I assume this would be hard due to variables in purity, porosity, surface area, etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think he may have been asking of the removal rate of GFO can in some way be quantified.

I assume this would be hard, due to variables in purity, porosity, surface area, etc.

Yes, and it is complicated for the reason I mentioned (release from rock and sand), as well as flow rate and completeness of flow through it, specific surface area of a given brand, what else is binding to it (organics, silicate, bacteria, etc.) etc.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I had a Lanthanum Chloride experience I will share. When I used it the first time, I had issues. Can't tell you if I did something wrong or not but it really agitated my Kole Tang and Melanurus Wrasse. I stopped the activity immediately & later got some advice form people here at R2R I really trust. The consensus was that the LC could not have caused the issue and that something else was going on. I was skeptical but I did a water change and tried it again a few days later. This time everything went smoothly with no change to my process. I never figured out what went wrong the first time. I've used LC a few times since then without issue but I am still a little wary of using it.

 

[schooncw]

That is a rather misleading (open ended) statement.
Of course correlation does not imply causation, but that does not mean that observed events and postulated conclusions are necessarily wrong either.

In my case, through repeated experiments over ~2 years I was able to see a direct and repeatable effect on (3) tangs in my system, with their health visibly deteriorating the longer LaCl was used in the system and improving when LaCl dosing was ceased. This was observed over numerous cycles. I lost a Yellow tang in the process and nearly lost my Scopas tang. A tomini tang was affected but to a lesser extent.

My quest to lower phosphates safely with LaCl was not designed or controlled as a scientific experiment and instead more a trial and error progression. I did keep detailed notes on doses, schedules, phosphate levels (Hanna ULR and Hanna Phosphate, as well as Salifert) and countless fish photos. Unfortunately the notebook was tossed after it became waterlogged and moldy a few years ago. I have no idea where the bulk of the photos are, but there were a series of them published on my website at one point.

I am aware that many of you dose LaCl and feel that it is safe. From my research and experience, scientific or not, I do not share that opinion. I won't change your minds and you won't change mine, so there really is no argument to be had.

I used LAN for a few months and was amazed with this "miracle" but that sentiment was short lived. I have loads of rock in my 120 and most of it is 25-30 years old, so lots of bound PO. I saw no effects on my fish and I have 3 tangs, amongst others.
Even with all of my research, I was astounded at what my skimmer was pulling out and yet, the flocculant was still everywhere. Did 2 deep cleans on the sump and it was in every single piece of equipment in the water, which I removed and cleaned a few times. The only things that seemed to really suffer, however,
were my leather corals and toadstools, yet Euphyllia and gonis were/are fine-I have not seen anyone complain about this. Several weeks later, and still no polyps on my leather corals but it looks like my toadstools are starting to come back. Am back to GFO.

 

[schooncw]

Used lc 20 or 30 times over the past 5 years with no apparent problems.
Used brightwell phosphate e and phosban L.
Do not reduce po4 more than 0.5 ppm per day. Never use it below 0.2 ppm phosphate to try to insure all the lc reacts quickly.
Lanthanum chloride reacts with phosphate to form a flocculant, or precipatate that can mostly be filtered with a 5 micron sock. Run a skimmer at the same time.
As others have said dilute 50:1, and drip into the overflow over 4 to 8 hours.
If you see cloudy water in your tank when using lc, it is not being filtered effectively by the sox, stop and check your methods.
I think minimizing the amount that reaches the dt by 1) dripping into overflow 2) filter sox, 3) dilution over hours is best practice, regardless of manufacturers instructions.
Lc is a good tool that requires a safe dosing method.

My mistake, was dosing too quickly into the 5 micron sock and I know this now. My water always clouded up.