DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't want to write a book about it on this great thread, but I have reduced it down to 17ug 3 weeks between ICP results.

OK, thanks. IMO, that level is typically not high enough to be an issue in most cases, although tin is complicated as there are many chemical forms it might be, with different potential toxicity.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

OK, thanks. IMO, that level is typically not high enough to be an issue in most cases, although tin is complicated as there are many chemical forms it might be, with different potential toxicity.

I had noted that from a variety of your posts on the matter. I had SPS almost turning black, and not immediately RTNing. It was very bizzare. I discontinued aqua vitro fuel, kz flatworm stop, and kz coral boost - all reef products which do not provide quantites or quantites and ingredients which is very disappointing.

Unfortunately so many changes out of containment desperation, I won't be able to determine root cause, but I will proceed with more frequent ICP tests to see if I can identify a trend once I return to normal operations (I hope).

 

[Tuna Melt]

Has anyone experienced RTN / STN that coincided with ammonia dosing? I ask because there is a small contingent of us that anecdotally get RTN / STN when nitrate dosing.

Should we banish Nitrate dosing?

If we read this investigation : http://cris.leibniz-zmt.de/id/eprint/4590/1/Zhao 2021.pdf and read the conclusion of HW Balling in case of STN/RTN : Shouldn't we all stop dosing nitrates? I have a sps dominated tank for 5 years now and I only lost a few colonies during the few months I started...

www.reef2reef.com

Addition of nitrate and STN

I decided to write this thread to document my strange experience in which I can only draw theories but may have an answer. Every time I add any form of nitrate manually to my tank it starts an STN event in my sps. I have tried calcium nitrate esv and homemade, potassium nitrate, and ammonium...

www.reef2reef.com

I dosed 0.1 ppm ammonia for two days, and noticed a small amount of RTN / STN on a Leptoseris, that has been chuggin along for months. Correlation is not causation and I cannot say for certain it was the ammonia dosing that caused this. I probably just spooked myself, but I'm curious if others have experienced STN/RTN when ammonia dosing.

This paper seems to corroborate that elevated N03 can increased bleaching... Conversley, it states increased NH4 seems to help prevent bleaching! "In particular, nitrate (NO3−) enrichment reduces thermal tolerance while ammonium (NH4+) enrichment tends to benefit coral health." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7371892/

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Has anyone experienced RTN / STN that coincided with ammonia dosing? I ask because there is a small contingent of us that anecdotally get RTN / STN when nitrate dosing.

Should we banish Nitrate dosing?

If we read this investigation : http://cris.leibniz-zmt.de/id/eprint/4590/1/Zhao 2021.pdf and read the conclusion of HW Balling in case of STN/RTN : Shouldn't we all stop dosing nitrates? I have a sps dominated tank for 5 years now and I only lost a few colonies during the few months I started...

www.reef2reef.com

Addition of nitrate and STN

I decided to write this thread to document my strange experience in which I can only draw theories but may have an answer. Every time I add any form of nitrate manually to my tank it starts an STN event in my sps. I have tried calcium nitrate esv and homemade, potassium nitrate, and ammonium...

www.reef2reef.com

I dosed 0.1 ppm ammonia for two days, and noticed a small amount of RTN / STN on a Leptoseris, that has been chuggin along for months. Correlation is not causation and I cannot say for certain it was the ammonia dosing that caused this. I probably just spooked myself, but I'm curious if others have experienced STN/RTN when ammonia dosing.

This paper seems to corroborate that elevated N03 can increased bleaching... Conversley, it states increased NH4 seems to help prevent bleaching! "In particular, nitrate (NO3−) enrichment reduces thermal tolerance while ammonium (NH4+) enrichment tends to benefit coral health." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7371892/

I have not witnessed any ill effects at all (other than some unwieldy film algae on the glass that is extremely difficult to scrape off). I forgot when I started, I’d have to look it up, but it is well over six months now. I’m wondering how much of the issue you brought up relates to other issues like when one doses aminos. I had tissue necrosis every time I added aminos (as had others). I think the general conclusion was that we must have had some nasties in the system that when given fuel would over populate. So, I wouldn’t say that using aminos causes necrosis. But that it could possibly help fuel an existing population of nasties (that was somewhat in check and existence was unknown) to become a problem. I would venture that maybe the same is possible with any component that could feed anything, good or bad.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

I have not witnessed any ill effects at all (other than some unwieldy film algae on the glass that is extremely difficult to scrape off). I forgot when I started, I’d have to look it up, but it is well over six months now. I’m wondering how much of the issue you brought up relates to other issues like when one doses aminos. I had tissue necrosis every time I added aminos (as had others). I think the general conclusion was that we must have had some nasties in the system that when given fuel would over populate. So, I wouldn’t say that using aminos causes necrosis. But that it could possibly help fuel an existing population of nasties (that was somewhat in check and existence was unknown) to become a problem. I would venture that maybe the same is possible with any component that could feed anything, good or bad.

I believe this was my experience the past few weeks. Whatever balance I screwed up with either the pollutants, or removal of good bacteria from 2 50% WCs, perhaps bad bacteria got a foothold. The two times I resumed my regimen of fuel/acropower I observed a highly subjective adverse reaction same day. Perhaps the good stuff is quicker out and slower to "accumulate" when disturbed.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I have not witnessed any ill effects at all (other than some unwieldy film algae on the glass that is extremely difficult to scrape off). I forgot when I started, I’d have to look it up, but it is well over six months now. I’m wondering how much of the issue you brought up relates to other issues like when one doses aminos. I had tissue necrosis every time I added aminos (as had others). I think the general conclusion was that we must have had some nasties in the system that when given fuel would over populate. So, I wouldn’t say that using aminos causes necrosis. But that it could possibly help fuel an existing population of nasties (that was somewhat in check and existence was unknown) to become a problem. I would venture that maybe the same is possible with any component that could feed anything, good or bad.

I believe this was my experience the past few weeks. Whatever balance I screwed up with either the pollutants, or removal of good bacteria from 2 50% WCs, perhaps bad bacteria got a foothold. The two times I resumed my regimen of fuel/acropower I observed a highly subjective adverse reaction same day. Perhaps the good stuff is quicker out and slower to "accumulate" when disturbed.

I agree, I'm not sure the biological reason but for some reason an increase in available N = STN / RTN in my tank. Maybe I have some dysbionts that can fix nitrogen faster than other bacteria... Who knows...

That being said, the paper I posted earlier does make a very convincing case for the benefits of ammonia and coral health...

 

[Hans-Werner]

I agree, I'm not sure the biological reason but for some reason an increase in available N = STN / RTN in my tank. Maybe I have some dysbionts that can fix nitrogen faster than other bacteria... Who knows...

That being said, the paper I posted earlier does make a very convincing case for the benefits of ammonia and coral health...

Phosphate concentration and alkalinity may be important when starting dosing any kind of available nitrogen compounds.

 

[Tuna Melt]

Phosphate concentration and alkalinity may be important when starting dosing any kind of available nitrogen compounds.

Can you expand on this a bit?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you expand on this a bit?

I'm not Hans-Werner, but my thoughts on that are that you do not not phosphate to start too low because it's consumption may increase as the available N rises, and that some ways of dosing N may consume or add alkalinity. If you are dosing ammonia then I describe the alk effects in the first post of this thread, one of which depletes alk (ammonium chloride) and one of which is alk neutral (ammonium bicarbonate), assuming the ammonia is consumed and nitrate is not rising considerably.

 

[East1]

I'm not Hans-Werner, but my thoughts on that are that you do not not phosphate to start too low because it's consumption may increase as the available N rises, and that some ways of dosing N may consume or add alkalinity. If you are dosing ammonia then IO describe the alk effects in the first post of this thread, one of which depletes alk (ammonium chloride) and one of which is alk neutral (ammonium bicarbonate), assuming the ammonia is consumed and nitrate is not rising considerably.

this is correct

most corals especially acropora respond quite strongly to the ambient alk and phosphate concentrations directly (unlike nitrate which can vary quite significantly and not pose problems, a quickly shifting P or alk value can and will affect their health)

when dosing N, it changes the ratio of the ambient N to alk and the N to P ratios which affect how the coral grows. often we recognise this as P reducing calcification but in reality it works more like higher P results in a coral that grows more tissue than skeleton, which gives more tissue mass and actually means a healthy coral.

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

suddenly changing these ratios can push the coral metabolism and often corals will go dormant, recede, skin over or lose tissue when this happens.

as a rule of thumb for acropora slow basal tissue necrosis implies lack of P, and from the tips implies lack of N. when N drops to 0 they will start to metabolise their tissue very fast and then die from the apical polyp internally, finally losing surface flesh (what we call RTN)

 

[malcolmyoung]

Hello, I'm from Belgium and try this method to dosing and maintain NO3 in my tank. I have between 800 and 900 liters in my tank with refugium and coral frag tank.

I have some questions about my dosage. I started one week ago with ammonium bicarbonate. Previously, I used KNO3 with a dosing of 17 ml by day (with a solution of 100 gr/l of KNO3). For my dosing of Ammonium bicarbonate I mix 20 gr in 1 liter as mentioned.

When I started the dosing one week ago, my NO3 were between 5 and 6, but since the dosing of Ammonium they decrease. I'm now dosing 50 ml of the solution by day distributed each hour all day long, but NO3 still decrease and now at 1,7 of NO3. I will increase the dosage at 70 ml or more.

But is it safe to introduce that amount of ammonium for fish and corals ? I tested my ammonium 3 days ago and no presence of ammonium was showing on the test.

For the next solution I'll mix 100 gr of ammonium bicarbonate in 1 liter to have a more concentrate solution.

Thanks for your advices

Someone to Help me and can answer to my questions , Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Someone to Help me and can answer to my questions , Thanks

Yes, I would increase your dose, although even now you may have sufficiently available N. But to be sure, keeping at least 2 ppm nitrate seems like a good plan.

With the dose all spread out as you do, it is no more dangerous the feeding fish more.

 

[malcolmyoung]

Thanks for your reply, I'm dosing now between 60 and 65 ml to maintain my level of NO3. I noticed that my corals seems more colorful

I was afraid to dosing too much Ammonium, but your asnwer reassured me

 

[hers0109]

Based on the comment below of keeping the solution closed… any issue with putting the solution in a dosing pump which requires an air gap/air flow in the bottle to avoid it imploding

- keep the stock solution closed so it doesn’t cause odor and lose potency.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Can you expand on this a bit?

Your question was already answered very well.

- Dosing available nitrogen compounds increases phosphate consumption. When phosphate concentrations get too low this may cause STN from the base of the coral, especially in Acropora corals.

- Alkalinity and phosphate have antagonistic effects on calcium carbonate precipitation. High alkalinity and low phosphate concentrations are a bad combination for corals. Sinking phosphate concentrations may worsen this alkalinity to phosphate ratio also leading to STN from the base of the coral.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Based on the comment below of keeping the solution closed… any issue with putting the solution in a dosing pump which requires an air gap/air flow in the bottle to avoid it imploding

- keep the stock solution closed so it doesn’t cause odor and lose potency.

No, that's not a concern.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Based on the comment below of keeping the solution closed… any issue with putting the solution in a dosing pump which requires an air gap/air flow in the bottle to avoid it imploding

- keep the stock solution closed so it doesn’t cause odor and lose potency.

Started this myself last evening, 10mL/day 4x daily, 400mL container in the event of an OD may be survivable. Better than a full liter at least.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Started this myself last evening, 10mL/day 4x daily, 400mL container in the event of an OD may be survivable. Better than a full liter at least.

Sounds reasonable to use a small reservoir.

When I was dosing vinegar, I did dose straight from a 1 gallon jug, but I was sure to have the jug below the level of the bottom of the drip tip so there was no chance of siphoning.

 

[agol77]

Your question was already answered very well.

- Dosing available nitrogen compounds increases phosphate consumption. When phosphate concentrations get too low this may cause STN from the base of the coral, especially in Acropora corals.

- Alkalinity and phosphate have antagonistic effects on calcium carbonate precipitation. High alkalinity and low phosphate concentrations are a bad combination for corals. Sinking phosphate concentrations may worsen this alkalinity to phosphate ratio also leading to STN from the base of the coral.

I'm not Hans-Werner, but my thoughts on that are that you do not not phosphate to start too low because it's consumption may increase as the available N rises, and that some ways of dosing N may consume or add alkalinity. If you are dosing ammonia then I describe the alk effects in the first post of this thread, one of which depletes alk (ammonium chloride) and one of which is alk neutral (ammonium bicarbonate), assuming the ammonia is consumed and nitrate is not rising considerably.

Hi Randy. I’ve been adding ammonium bicarbonate to my ATO water, and it seems to be working well. My tank is fallow at the moment, due to an ich outbreak, and this is helping me maintain about 8ppm nitrate, alongside feeding of inverts. Is it possible for me to add my DIY potassium phosphate solution to the ATO as well, or is it likely to react with the ammonium bicarbonate? Many thanks.

 

[pgroth1]

Would there be any problem with mixing ammonium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate together and dosing one solution?