Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ggNoRe]

I’m having a nasty bout with the sand dwelling ones myself! I’m about 80% gone at the moment and waiting to get home today to see if they’re gone! If so I’ll update the thread but it seems to be working great! This is my second bout in the last 3 months Dino’s… first ones were toxic and smothering corals and killing them! This I got rid of with just straight h202 after a week.. these sand ones have been a pain for the last 2 weeks but I changed my plan of attack 5 days ago and so far so good!

Please tell us the details of the method you used. I recently watched a reef podcast on Reefbum with Dong Zou who is a scientist and he basically said H202 directly in a reeftank is useless as it will dissipate before it even reaches the algae unless dumped in extreme amounts like 100ml+ in a 100g system. He said Peroxide only works for dips since it can be used at much higher concentration.

Found it! 1:41:00 mark

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Dong Zou, AcroGarden

Rappin' With ReefBum is a LIVE talk show with host Keith Berkelhamer and guests from the reef keeping community. In this episode I chat with Dong Zou from Ac...

www.youtube.com

 

[DarkReefer]

Please tell us the details of the method you used. I recently watched a reef podcast on Reefbum with Dong Zou who is a scientist and he basically said H202 directly in a reeftank is useless as it will dissipate before it even reaches the algae unless dumped in extreme amounts like 100ml+ in a 100g system. He said Peroxide only works for dips since it can be used at much higher concentration.

Found it! 1:41:00 mark

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Dong Zou, AcroGarden

Rappin' With ReefBum is a LIVE talk show with host Keith Berkelhamer and guests from the reef keeping community. In this episode I chat with Dong Zou from Ac...

www.youtube.com

Yeah I'm not so sure.
I get he might be a scientist etc, but you've got dozens if not 100s of people who see and report results here alone.

I think his initial reaction was to that of the first comment being 2ml in 200gallons after which he was updated with info of 2ml per gallon which he said was a lot and then started commenting about how it can be powerful stuff to kill off dipped corals or whatever.

If I didn't try it myself and see the results I did the day after... I'd probably be sceptical too.

I basically went from this

To this (well actually it was a bunch better, this is after some started coming back after a week or two) within a week or so of dosing h202. And that was after trying UV by itself, among other things. Pod dosing, phyto dosing and other things.

It got a bit worse than this and I'm near on looking at clear white sand at the moment this time around.
I'm inclined to say there's results of some description. Whether that's because it's killing stuff off or just making it white... who knows

 

[Troylee]

Please tell us the details of the method you used. I recently watched a reef podcast on Reefbum with Dong Zou who is a scientist and he basically said H202 directly in a reeftank is useless as it will dissipate before it even reaches the algae unless dumped in extreme amounts like 100ml+ in a 100g system. He said Peroxide only works for dips since it can be used at much higher concentration.

Found it! 1:41:00 mark

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Dong Zou, AcroGarden

Rappin' With ReefBum is a LIVE talk show with host Keith Berkelhamer and guests from the reef keeping community. In this episode I chat with Dong Zou from Ac...

www.youtube.com

H202 works! I’ve proven that over and over.. I’m the one who started the thread about it 12 years ago or something on here.. I’m currently using sunny x “diy coral snow” mixed with mb7… I shut off my return pump and dose it at like 4 times his strength so my tank is super cloudy and start blowing the sand and rocks with a turkey baster for the next hour while running a uv light in my display.. at night I dose 1ml per 10 gallons of h202 a couple hours after lights out and they’re fading away more every day.. my idea was to use the coral snow so when I stir the sand it keeps them suspended in the water column longer allowing the uv light to do it’s job! It’s working quiet well I must say.. I tried just the coral snow and skimming wet “which helped” but they just kept coming back.. now that I got a uv in my display and a way to keep them out of the sand for a longer amount of time the skimmer and uv are making a great impact.

 

[Mrtakeoff53]

One thing that I’m sure it’s totally coincidental is when this outbreak first started it was shortly after I ordered from reefcleaners. Once I beat it or thought, I beat it. This most recent outbreak was after another order from them.

Hmmm, I have a new outbreak of Dinos and just added a package of snails from reef cleaners…my nitrates and phosophates are HIGH though (50 and 0.10 respectively). Maybe not so coincidental after all

 

[a.t.t.r]

Hmmm, I have a new outbreak of Dinos and just added a package of snails from reef cleaners…my nitrates and phosophates are HIGH though (50 and 0.10 respectively). Maybe not so coincidental after all

Florida reefs do suck lately.

 

[taricha]

So I completed the elegant method. I used XLM start for nitrifying bacteria rather then ATM. The XLM says is 15X etc etc so my best alternative. My experience:
1. I followed the protocols. I did not let the phosphate bottom out and kept it stable throughout the process. Nitrate did not change much.
2. The rocks look noticeably cleaner.
3. The amphids in the sand did not change much. Maybe a slight reduction but not enough to state success of any kind. I only stirred sand at the front of the tank. There is an equal space behind the rocks I didn't stir. There is no visible difference from the front and back sand areas.
4. It is stressful for the fish just based on behaviour. At the end of treatment a firefish and royal gramma are no longer present and assumed dead. They were otherwise healthy. I am unable to make an exact correlation to the treatment as it could be from other causes.

If I tried again I would not stir sand. Maybe try with no nitrate and phosphate? I don't have corals in the tank presently. I have a hard time seeing this method eradicating amphids from my sand.

I think one of the strong mechanisms behind the method is the depletion of nutrients. I imagine that intentionally adding NO3/PO4would decrease the effectiveness.
I've found I can do just the carbon dose part of the method and surface nuisances lose their color (in a way that fits nutrient limitation) and recede.

My perfectly healthy yellow tang died while following the elegant method. 0/10 would not recommend.

the O2 lowering is the biggest risk, and I believe livestock losses with this method can be tied to that.

Please tell us the details of the method you used. I recently watched a reef podcast on Reefbum with Dong Zou who is a scientist and he basically said H202 directly in a reeftank is useless as it will dissipate before it even reaches the algae unless dumped in extreme amounts like 100ml+ in a 100g system. He said Peroxide only works for dips since it can be used at much higher concentration.

Yeah I'm not so sure.
I get he might be a scientist etc, but you've got dozens if not 100s of people who see and report results here alone.

H202 works! I’ve proven that over and over.. I’m the one who started the thread about it 12 years ago or something on here.

A couple of things on H2O2.
It is effective directly as a dip. At normal tankwide application levels 1ml/10gal or 1ml/10L it is too dilute to have the direct algae-killing effect like in a dip setting. Dong Zhou is correct about that. Thanks for sharing the vid.
But at those levels it does not disappear immediately. You can check this with peroxide test strips and find that it persists for hours. People dosing 2x a day (also not too uncommon) may be keeping some non-zero concentration 24/7.

Jay Hemdal found the same in his article:
"Hydrogen peroxide drop-down test:
It is reported in the aquarium hobby literature that hydrogen peroxide, added to seawater breaks down within minutes if the solution is aerated. This was found to be incorrect. A 25-ppm solution of hydrogen peroxide in strongly aerated seawater still measured > 20 ppm after 72 hours. A similar test using deionized water showed even more stability – a 25 ppm solution was measured after five days at 10-20 ppm."

It's important to understand that peroxide may be working in a few different ways against nuisance algae - and not just straight oxidative killing like in a dip. H2O2 would be reactive with trace metals in the water and may well alter the bioavailability of Fe etc in a way that can affect nuisance algae.

Bottom line, I think H2O2 in modest tank-wide doses can be effective even if the mechanisms are complex and not anything like how it behaves in a dip.

 

[Rendgrish]

Hi,

Hoping to get a second opinion- do these look like amphidinium? I'm not entirely sure the difference between those and prorocentrum. Thanks in advance!

 

[taricha]

do these look like amphidinium? I'm not entirely sure the difference between those and prorocentrum.

at this magnification, I can't tell either.

 

[DarkReefer]

Quick update on my dino situation;

Stopped dosing h202 after Day 5 and sandbed looked clear.
I also stopped dosing MB7 as I ran out.
I did do one half dose of Dr Tims Waste Away though and I also started to bump the lights up. (currently at around 40-45%). One of my soft corals is VERY unhappy looking at the moment, but everything else seems okay. Hopefully in another 2-3 days if the sandbed remains looking clear I'll give the lights another 5-10% bump.

I think I've worked out that my Klir filter isn't working at the moment. Not sure if it's due to being a little 'tight' so it's not spinning or what. Manual works though. I'll have to change it tonight (noticed it too late this morning).
Possibly also explains why my Nitrates have been continuing to increase. Latest tests show Nitrate at 48.3 and Phos at 0.077.
Happy with Phosphate where it is for now, but Nitrates certainly need some attention.
I'll swap the carbon out again tonight and also chuck in a new filter fleece roll and hopefully that'll get her under control a bit. With a bit of luck the Waste Away might've done a little something too but we'll see.

Sand and rockwork look pretty clear though currently. So fingers crossed I can keep it on the right track.

 

[Eyllis]

Hello, Would someone be so kind as to help me identify my dinos. I think they are Large Cell Amphidinium but I am not 100% certain. I am only seeing them on my sand bed at the moment. They sink into it after the lights go down. Sorry about the shaky video. My hands aren't the most steady. Thank you! YouTube Link to Dino video

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Totally. Having your own scope is best, but until you get one I'd be happy to ID any suspected Dinos that anyone wants to send me. PM me for details. It'd need to be next day shipping, because if it sits more than a day in summer shipping heat, I couldn't ID what was left.


I know you were half-joking, but pulling some debris from the bottom of someone's healthy established algae-filled Fuge would be great to seed a new tank with. There's great stuff in there.



Ok, to deliver on the tease... pods & snails aren't the only things that eat dinos. Here's my personal unsung hero dino grazers: Ciliates!
This is a large relative of Euplotes having ingested amphidinium (click each pic for link to video)


This is Coleps having ingested an amphidinium and a couple other dino cells (click for vid moving through focal plane). I've seen a bunch of these in other people's tanks too after they had dinos. Common dino grazer?


This is a hypotrich ciliate of some kind


And Finally, my favorite - these worm-looking ciliates eat Ostreopsis (yep) a handful at a time (!). I hadn't posted these when I shot them back in April of 2016, because (heh) I saw these videos and honestly thought we could solve Dino problems by shipping people bottles with a million of these guys to pour in your tank.
Enjoy video


Only 3 problems with that.
1. Had no idea what they were
2. No idea how to culture them to any density
3. Biggest and most importantly - I didn't realize the huge difference between "can eat toxic dinos" - (these do!), and "can grow and multiply on toxic dinos" (nothing does)

two days ago I got an ID for them from this dude's video (of them eating different dinos)
"Ciliado marino,posiblemente Trachelocerca
Su aspecto recuerda al ciliado Lacrymaria"

Wow how cool! But I don't understand. In #3 you say nothing eats toxic dinos and multiplies? That seems unlikely right? There must be things that can eat each type of dinos and multiply. Evolution is way too powerful for there to be something that nothing can eat over millions of years lol, especially something as common as dinos.

Btw the Cilado Marino or whatever the snaking worm things are. I was waiting patiently in the video to see them eat one. That would be so cool lol.

 

[taricha]

Wow how cool! But I don't understand. In #3 you say nothing eats toxic dinos and multiplies? That seems unlikely right? There must be things that can eat each type of dinos and multiply. Evolution is way too powerful for there to be something that nothing can eat over millions of years lol, especially something as common as dinos.

good point, let me give 3 responses.
1) maybe there is something that has developed immunity to dino toxins - we are unlikely to have such a thing that we could identify, buy, culture etc.
1b) there are herbivorous fish, and some bivalves that can eat enough toxic dinos (unintentionally) that they accumulate dino toxins sufficient to sicken people from eating the fish or bivalves. (see ciguatera and paralytic shellfish poisoning)

2) There are plenty of organisms with no natural predators in their environment, that are instead population limited by food.

3) Benthic dinos dominating systems are not that common in the natural environment. They are bit players most places almost all of the time.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

good point, let me give 3 responses.
1) maybe there is something that has developed immunity to dino toxins - we are unlikely to have such a thing that we could identify, buy, culture etc.
1b) there are herbivorous fish, and some bivalves that can eat enough toxic dinos (unintentionally) that they accumulate dino toxins sufficient to sicken people from eating the fish or bivalves. (see ciguatera and paralytic shellfish poisoning)

2) There are plenty of organisms with no natural predators in their environment, that are instead population limited by food.

3) Benthic dinos dominating systems are not that common in the natural environment. They are bit players most places almost all of the time.

Ya good points. Thanks Those one worms seemed to be very present in that one guys video btw, maybe they were thriving. I think that might be the one you were hoping to bottle? It's crazy we're 5 years into some of these threads and still don't fully understand how to control dinos fully. At least we're making great progress thanks to people like you!

 

[DarkReefer]

Ya good points. Thanks Those one worms seemed to be very present in that one guys video btw, maybe they were thriving. I think that might be the one you were hoping to bottle? It's crazy we're 5 years into some of these threads and still don't fully understand how to control dinos fully. At least we're making great progress thanks to people like you!

Well said.

I'm sure there are a LOT of grateful people on this forum who really appreciate the work and lengths some of the people on here go to in trying to sort out issues that other people are having. I know I do.
I'm sure I would've hung up the towel by now if not for some of the support from fellow reefers and the invaluable advice received on here.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Well said.

I'm sure there are a LOT of grateful people on this forum who really appreciate the work and lengths some of the people on here go to in trying to sort out issues that other people are having. I know I do.
I'm sure I would've hung up the towel by now if not for some of the support from fellow reefers and the invaluable advice received on here.

Cheers!

 

[taricha]

I think they are Large Cell Amphidinium but I am not 100% certain.

agreed.

Those one worms seemed to be very present in that one guys video btw, maybe they were thriving. I think that might be the one you were hoping to bottle?

yep. They have repeatedly showed up in dino-infested sand (seen them in multiple people's systems) and show ingested toxic dino cells in the microscope.

It's crazy we're 5 years into some of these threads and still don't fully understand how to control dinos fully. At least we're making great progress thanks to people like you!

I'm sure I would've hung up the towel by now if not for some of the support from fellow reefers and the invaluable advice received on here.

Thanks for this.
Just a caveat, much of my advice over the past few years has been for people with dinos that got them by running very depleted nutrients to raise their nutrients to modest levels, among other interventions.
But of course there are many hobbyists who run ULN systems with happy coral and never any dinos. In fact there are people who never get dinos, yet do every single thing that we advise as putting you at risk of getting dinos. So all our descriptions are of course incomplete and a little wrong in some way.
But we advise regardless because our incomplete info is the best we've got!

 

[ggNoRe]

I was able to defeat a very stubborn and persistent version of dinoflagellates that mostly dominated in my sand for several months. This is what worked for me:

1. Getting nitrates between 5-15 and phosphates between .05-.15 and staying there for several weeks.
2. Manual removal via turkey basting, filter pad, UV sterilizer, and skimming.
3. 2 day blackout followed by a slow ramp up.
4. Heavy phytoplankton dosing 50ml/ day in 200G system.
5. Heavy Microbacter 7 dosing 50ml/day in 200G system.

You can see all the details in a separate thread I made: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-dinoflagellates-experiment.958677/page-4#post-11067726

 

[taricha]

I was able to defeat a very stubborn and persistent version of dinoflagellates that mostly dominated in my sand for several months. This is what worked for me:

Very nicely done. I know you don't have microscope pics, but can you say anything about toxicity? (dead CUC etc)

 

[Troylee]

Very nicely done. I know you don't have microscope pics, but can you say anything about toxicity? (dead CUC etc)

These ones aren’t toxic.. I’m currently battling the same ones… in fact! My conch loves to eat them lol.. I’ve got them about 80% gone.. just waiting on some strugglers to finally die out.. fought them the same way besides the black out! I don’t believe in the black out as they always come back when the lights come back on… I decided to fight them without a change in my light schedule so when they’re gone they’re gone for good! I even added a second light so my par has doubled lol..

 

[taricha]

I've long been a skeptic of pods/phyto but accounts of success have me leaning toward thinking pods/phyto can be a good approach to a low/nontoxic outbreak.
(with toxic types, I've personally observed it just ending up with lots of dead pods overrun by dinos)