Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

ggNoRe

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I'm with you guys. Setup my dream display tank in the middle of my living room. Got dinos on month three and it's been a rollercoaster every since. Now 2 years in and still fighting. But let's not give up and advance the hobby instead. There has to be a end all be all solution
 

Yodeling

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Need to vent.

7 reef tanks in and both tanks I tried LEDs on got dinos. Heck if I can say what the cause is, I have nutrients, and used real Florida live rock, up for over a year. Used to keep SPS with ease, now... things seem harder.

Lots of theories out there, but no one seems to really know why we are seeing so much dinos these days, .

This might be the death a hobby I loved since 2005.


I feel the same way. I’ve had many tanks over the years since 2003 and many tear-downs for various reasons. But this last tear-down was the first time I felt that I’m done with the hobby for good (after a year of battling ostreopsis without success). Back in the day Dino’s were pretty uncommon and I always felt comfortable getting corals at the local frag swaps etc. Nowadays, I believe that pretty much everybody has Dino’s.

To make things worse, there are countless threads of anecdotal successes, encouraging people to undergo very long, expensive, and labor-intensive regimens. I believe only a very low percentage of those who claim success are actually successful long term (like that YouTuber that does a dino victory video every year). Imho most of these so called victories are temporary and were achieved through an unknown combinations of factors that are unreproducible. Then you have desperate people investing thousands to cure large tanks based on successes from a 20 gal, etc.

I’m sure vendors love it because “Dino fighters” tend to go on desperate shopping sprees. If someone actually comes up with an effective method of killing Dino’s (without nuking corals), i might be back. In the meantime, it just takes all the pleasure out of the hobby. It’s truly sad.
 

DarkReefer

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I’m sure vendors love it because “Dino fighters” tend to go on desperate shopping sprees. If someone actually comes up with an effective method of killing Dino’s (without nuking corals), i might be back. In the meantime, it just takes all the pleasure out of the hobby. It’s truly sad.

It's a shame that you've given it the flick for now but I can completely understand why.
I've been wanting to get a larger tank for some time (and soon will be in a place where that can be possible), however I am a little wary of the idea more so these days due to my battles with dinos. These things suck the beauty and enjoyment out of the tanks creating frustration for us all.

Even information as to why it happens in the first place also doesn't appear to be consistent at least in my experience. Given I've been reading bottoming out phosphates and nitrates can be the cause for these things kicking off, even after having those levels raised the dang things still persist.
My Nitrates are now at 37.7 & Phosphate at 0.107 (both have been elevated for numerous weeks now) and yet they seem to be continually thriving so it makes me wonder if it's possibly coming from somewhere else. Perhaps water source/food etc.
 

thedon986

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I’ve had four reef tanks so far and the only one I didn’t have dinos was the one I did not start with dry rock. My first setup ever I used live rock, didn’t test anything and let it roll and while I had its problems it went way better than when I started with dry rock and kept things way to clean and it was always amphidinium dinos. I’m about to start another setup now and I’m going to use Tampa Bay Saltwater rock and sand and go for the insta-aged-tank and hope that keeps them away.
 

mikerosi

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I have a fowler tank with Anemones and my phosphates went to zero and I had Dino’s
I used vetteguys peroxide method at night with microbacter7 in the morning and I beat them miraculously now I have some diatoms which is way better
I continue to dose phosphate to .08 and nitrate from 5 to 10 and that seem to do the trick for the Dino’s
I’m very happy but keeping my fingers crossed that they don’t come back
 

DarkReefer

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I have a fowler tank with Anemones and my phosphates went to zero and I had Dino’s
I used vetteguys peroxide method at night with microbacter7 in the morning and I beat them miraculously now I have some diatoms which is way better
I continue to dose phosphate to .08 and nitrate from 5 to 10 and that seem to do the trick for the Dino’s
I’m very happy but keeping my fingers crossed that they don’t come back
Nice work!

I'm planning to do a water change today, siphon out some of the crap on the sandbed and then start the peroxide again tonight. REALLY hoping it doesn't kill off my fireworks, zoas and nems that are just start to look like they're bouncing back.
 

devocole

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I have had LCA for 2 years. 240 gallon. Started dry rock, with rocks seeded from my other tanks, small quantity. Every bottled bacteria on the market, 10 or more bottles of Purple helix and pink fusion. Was attempting a sterile start but adding bacteria. Then 3 macroalgaes from algae barn. Before I knew it was LCA I tried:
1. A ton of slime remover.
2. Hydrogen peroxide dosing
3. Dr. Tims dino regiments with complete blackout. Months relief.

Bought a microscope and ID'd LCA.

I used 15 bottles of spongeexcel before buying 1 litre of pharmacy grade silicate at 37%. I have overdosed enough of this stuff over the course of a year that I can say it is not helping enough.

I stopped buying Phyto and pods and culture it myself now. Dosing 750-1000ml combo of the 2 daily.

Did Microbacter 7 dosing daily for a period of time.

Kept journal of phosphate and nitrate levels and maintained them with my own mixtures from trisodium phosphate and sodium nitrate.

Recent Triton test shows only K+ needing a dose but everything else is good.

No water changes for more than 6 months.

I have had to take all the coral out as they all deteriorated.

Microfauna is not an issue, the tank is absolutely crawling as I have no pod eating fish. The sand is just a bunch of holes where creatures live. The side glass that I don't clean is covered in pods of all types.

I have not employed any filtration for some time.

The rockwork and everything looks fabulous. but enough light algae to know its healthy and the tangs, snails and urchins and keeping it at bay.

The sand is just turns gross every day without fail. No matter what is being dosed or the condition I try to apply.

I believe at this time removal of the sand is the only option. I have removed sections and washed and replaced, but within a week its back.

I'm struggling to decide how to do it. Do I:
1. Close to a complete removal and monitor, consider putting back in months later
2. Removed the top layer and turn the lights off for 5 days. This will cut back significant work but I have read these thing have cysts or spores that lay dormant for a while.
3. Since I have no corals. Do I go with Dino X and nuke the tank and hope I don't hurt my fish? My issue with this is Dino X is an algicide and wonder if that hard of a reset is bad.

Any advice?
 

thedon986

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I have had LCA for 2 years. 240 gallon. Started dry rock, with rocks seeded from my other tanks, small quantity. Every bottled bacteria on the market, 10 or more bottles of Purple helix and pink fusion. Was attempting a sterile start but adding bacteria. Then 3 macroalgaes from algae barn. Before I knew it was LCA I tried:
1. A ton of slime remover.
2. Hydrogen peroxide dosing
3. Dr. Tims dino regiments with complete blackout. Months relief.

Bought a microscope and ID'd LCA.

I used 15 bottles of spongeexcel before buying 1 litre of pharmacy grade silicate at 37%. I have overdosed enough of this stuff over the course of a year that I can say it is not helping enough.

I stopped buying Phyto and pods and culture it myself now. Dosing 750-1000ml combo of the 2 daily.

Did Microbacter 7 dosing daily for a period of time.

Kept journal of phosphate and nitrate levels and maintained them with my own mixtures from trisodium phosphate and sodium nitrate.

Recent Triton test shows only K+ needing a dose but everything else is good.

No water changes for more than 6 months.

I have had to take all the coral out as they all deteriorated.

Microfauna is not an issue, the tank is absolutely crawling as I have no pod eating fish. The sand is just a bunch of holes where creatures live. The side glass that I don't clean is covered in pods of all types.

I have not employed any filtration for some time.

The rockwork and everything looks fabulous. but enough light algae to know its healthy and the tangs, snails and urchins and keeping it at bay.

The sand is just turns gross every day without fail. No matter what is being dosed or the condition I try to apply.

I believe at this time removal of the sand is the only option. I have removed sections and washed and replaced, but within a week its back.

I'm struggling to decide how to do it. Do I:
1. Close to a complete removal and monitor, consider putting back in months later
2. Removed the top layer and turn the lights off for 5 days. This will cut back significant work but I have read these thing have cysts or spores that lay dormant for a while.
3. Since I have no corals. Do I go with Dino X and nuke the tank and hope I don't hurt my fish? My issue with this is Dino X is an algicide and wonder if that hard of a reset is bad.

Any advice?
I had them in my Fluval EVO 13.5 and eventually removed sand and kept it bare bottom for 6 months, when I upgraded to a new 70g I foolishly brought the rock with me and had a brand new sand bed and they came right back. Maybe if after a while you try to replace with live sand such as from Tampa Bay Saltwater or Gulf Live Rock you might have a chance? If no corals you could go dark for a long time (21+ days) as well and maybe also Dino-X?
 

devocole

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I had them in my Fluval EVO 13.5 and eventually removed sand and kept it bare bottom for 6 months, when I upgraded to a new 70g I foolishly brought the rock with me and had a brand new sand bed and they came right back. Maybe if after a while you try to replace with live sand such as from Tampa Bay Saltwater or Gulf Live Rock you might have a chance? If no corals you could go dark for a long time (21+ days) as well and maybe also Dino-X?
Interesting point. I didn't take the rock seriously as a place of harbour.
 

ggNoRe

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I have had LCA for 2 years. 240 gallon. Started dry rock, with rocks seeded from my other tanks, small quantity. Every bottled bacteria on the market, 10 or more bottles of Purple helix and pink fusion. Was attempting a sterile start but adding bacteria. Then 3 macroalgaes from algae barn. Before I knew it was LCA I tried:
1. A ton of slime remover.
2. Hydrogen peroxide dosing
3. Dr. Tims dino regiments with complete blackout. Months relief.

Bought a microscope and ID'd LCA.

I used 15 bottles of spongeexcel before buying 1 litre of pharmacy grade silicate at 37%. I have overdosed enough of this stuff over the course of a year that I can say it is not helping enough.

I stopped buying Phyto and pods and culture it myself now. Dosing 750-1000ml combo of the 2 daily.

Did Microbacter 7 dosing daily for a period of time.

Kept journal of phosphate and nitrate levels and maintained them with my own mixtures from trisodium phosphate and sodium nitrate.

Recent Triton test shows only K+ needing a dose but everything else is good.

No water changes for more than 6 months.

I have had to take all the coral out as they all deteriorated.

Microfauna is not an issue, the tank is absolutely crawling as I have no pod eating fish. The sand is just a bunch of holes where creatures live. The side glass that I don't clean is covered in pods of all types.

I have not employed any filtration for some time.

The rockwork and everything looks fabulous. but enough light algae to know its healthy and the tangs, snails and urchins and keeping it at bay.

The sand is just turns gross every day without fail. No matter what is being dosed or the condition I try to apply.

I believe at this time removal of the sand is the only option. I have removed sections and washed and replaced, but within a week its back.

I'm struggling to decide how to do it. Do I:
1. Close to a complete removal and monitor, consider putting back in months later
2. Removed the top layer and turn the lights off for 5 days. This will cut back significant work but I have read these thing have cysts or spores that lay dormant for a while.
3. Since I have no corals. Do I go with Dino X and nuke the tank and hope I don't hurt my fish? My issue with this is Dino X is an algicide and wonder if that hard of a reset is bad.

Any advice?
I feel your pain. I too have spent over $500 in bottled bacteria products. I'm starting to feel they may be the culprit in producing dinoflagellate issues rather than the cure.

I have a stubborn band in my sand in my 2 yr old system and this my third bout. Currently attempting to stabilize nutrients (around 10 nitrates and .05-.1 phosphates) for a while and see if the tank works itself out. I've decided to change my perspective from this is agonizing torture to it's an interesting and challenging science experiment that I am determined to find success in.

Best of luck
 

devocole

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I feel your pain. I too have spent over $500 in bottled bacteria products. I'm starting to feel they may be the culprit in producing dinoflagellate issues rather than the cure.

I have a stubborn band in my sand in my 2 yr old system and this my third bout. Currently attempting to stabilize nutrients (around 10 nitrates and .05-.1 phosphates) for a while and see if the tank works itself out. I've decided to change my perspective from this is agonizing torture to it's an interesting and challenging science experiment that I am determined to find success in.

Best of luck
Your perspective is exactly the one I have taken over the course of 2 years. It has been an interesting experiment and I have spent many hours a week working at it. My wife asked me last weekend if there are any other hobbies I might be interested in, noticing that the joy I got from the past was not quite the same. I am at the point where I believe the quantity and type of LCA is here to stay no matter what is done. In the beginning it covered every surface of the tank. For 1 year it is now only prominent in the sand. My recent ICP shows that the silicate level that I have maintained is crazy high enough. The nutrients have remained well above levels I'm used to keeping. My choice now is to accept them as a part of my ecosystem or nuke them. Even though they are the least pathogenic of the types. They kill conch, astrea, and turbo snails quickly. The urchins, spiny turbos( like astrea with more pointed parts near the attachment area) cerith and nasarious don't seem to be bothered. Almost all corals regardless of type have struggled to the point of needing removal. I would say that my coral success rate is 10%. I have tried every type of coral including high end torch, scolymia, acanthophyllia, elegance etc. I bought 20 cheap LPS corals of different types and put them on a rack just to observe. Over the course of 8 months all but 3 were ailing to some extent and needed removal. Could ailing corals be due to something else? Its possible. But this is not my first tank and my focus was SPS dominant in the past and I had an easier time with SPS in earlier times then this. I have not spared any expense on this tank and have an open budget. I spent a lot of time acquiring real dry rock with ledges, plates, tonga so I like my dry scape alone. I could keep a fish only with very little coral and still enjoy it. But the sand would be brown when the lights are on. My main concern now which I think I may be willing to risk, is doing the Dino x hoping that the fish don't suffer. I feel forced to make a decision because my 350 reefer coral holding tank split 2 inches from the top and is being held together with clamps right now. I believe its stable but silly to keep it this way long term.
 

ggNoRe

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Don't blame you in the least, it's not easy. Have you tried Elegant Corals Dinoflagellates Regimen? That's how I finally overcame my first battle with dinoflagellates which was a nasty one. They were gone for a good 8 months after until I used Rowaphos and carbon dosing to lower nutrients.

Also, seems you don't have much to lose with using DinoX. I used it myself before and my experience is it was relatively safe. It did not clear dinoflagellates immediately rather it took several doses over the course of 2-3weeks before dinoflagellates went away. But they eventually just came back after.
 

devocole

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Don't blame you in the least, it's not easy. Have you tried Elegant Corals Dinoflagellates Regimen? That's how I finally overcame my first battle with dinoflagellates which was a nasty one. They were gone for a good 8 months after until I used Rowaphos and carbon dosing to lower nutrients.

Also, seems you don't have much to lose with using DinoX. I used it myself before and my experience is it was relatively safe. It did not clear dinoflagellates immediately rather it took several doses over the course of 2-3weeks before dinoflagellates went away. But they eventually just came back after.
Thanks for the advice. I will try the elegant method first.
Cheers
 

DarkReefer

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Sucks to hear you've had so much trouble @devocole
I hope I'm not in for the same.

Been dosing the h202 for 7 days now. Same qty as the first time around but I've noticed less success overall. Still success but certainly less noticeable but that could also be because it wasn't nearly as bad as it was the first time.
The last couple of days I actually upped the dosage a little rather than lowering it. Previously I was dosing 5ml but I upped it to about 6-7ml and I think it's had more of an effect.
I might have to do another water change in a couple of weeks and start again with a stronger dose from the get go.

My Phosphates are now in the range of 0.18 and Nitrates have dipped slightly to 31.

I'm about to move house again in a month, so I don't think I'll be doing anything too drastic with the tank until I get it set up in the new place but certainly over looking at this stuff. I really want to just enjoy the tank, buy corals and see it thrive over time. In the new place I'll be possibly itching to buy a much bigger tank as it'll be my house and not a rental, but I REALLY don't want to have to deal with this stuff and worry that I'll spend all this money setting it up only to have the same issues in a larger scale...
 

a.t.t.r

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Well, I thought I’d beat it. I even had my entire tank covered in a nice layer of bryopsis (I actually want it to grow and part of reason I can’t go blue only )
Month of perfection orders some new livestock and day before it arrives the whole tank is covered in Dino’s again. Looks like it’s sucking the life out of the bryopsis.

I hate this. Been in hobby since 2005 and had many tank even ran an LfS. NEVER had this issue. I am really starting to think the key to this is either the lack of live rock or something with the LEDs. It’s the only two things that have changed for me.
 

a.t.t.r

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I'm running a Hydra 32HD LED.

What about water, are people here using store bought RO or producing your own, do you get salt water delivered or make your own ?
I have done all of those options and never had these issues. Currently, I am using my own rodi and reefcrystals.
 
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