Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Biff0rz]

Neither those ocasional dinos would…

I don’t like to say this but: trust me, I’m quite used to those microscopic views and interpretations around dinos…

I don't know what that means. My dinos have been worse than this. This isn't the firs sighting or battle. But I still can't interpret what you're insinuating.

Track down Brandon429 on here. He's the RIP CLEAN master. lol. It's not that bad. It's a full day of work, but once it's done you'll have a beautiful clean tank and another shot at it. You won't need to cycle again. At this point you are so out of whack (if that stuff truly grew back in 2 days) that you need to re-establish baseline.

I mean, I took a tooth brush to it and got as much as I could, not all of it would release from the rock with the brush. Then it grew back. Maybe 4 days?

So if I don't have to cycle that's really good. I could buy a holding tank for all the livestock for a day or use the 5 or 6 20gal tanks I have laying around. What about the sump? I have a fuge with live rock in it that's established. I'll look him up... Got a thread link?

 

[Reef and Dive]

I don't know what that means. My dinos have been worse than this. This isn't the firs sighting or battle. But I still can't interpret what you're insinuating.

Let me try to clear that.
I help people with dinos nearly every day here in Brazil, and people send me samples from their reefs…

Even on “perfect tank” samples I can very often find ocasional dinoflagellates, they are not the dominant microscopic species, they are just there among other things. They do no harm at all. So having a dino problem is not a matter of finding some in microscopic samples.

When a reef has a real dino problem they are by far the dominant species.

Examples of samples when they were not at all the “tank problem”:

Examples of samples where the problem was clearly a dinoflagellate bloom:

In your samples we clearly see green algae as a problem, and very ocasional dinos (that’s too trivial to be found, I can search my tank right now and find some for you).

It means, at least in this moment, you are clearly fighting the wrong pest. There’s no way, I assure you, to do a sample from your tank and not find any dinos (specially if you’ve had a bloom before).

And yes, they can be solved in terms of not being the prevailing species, and this is far from impossible these days…

 

[ScottB]

Track down Brandon429 on here. He's the RIP CLEAN master. lol. It's not that bad. It's a full day of work, but once it's done you'll have a beautiful clean tank and another shot at it. You won't need to cycle again. At this point you are so out of whack (if that stuff truly grew back in 2 days) that you need to re-establish baseline.

The rip clean protocol is a common remedy on small/medium tank. IIRC this is a 220G.

 

[taricha]

So if I use fluconazole it'll cause more dino?

It's not about fluco. any algicide that actually kills/stresses that mass of GHA will (short term) fuel dinos.

Note, my chaeto has melted. So are you also saying my situation is spiraling because there is too much gha?

yes. that's a carpet of GHA on every rock. tough corals don't mind. sensitive corals don't play well with that much algae in close vicinity. And you can always find dinos/cyano etc living around old GHA. It holds a lot of goodies.

The tangs don't even look at it. I have probably 100ish snails/crabs in Cuc, some have died, but they can't keep up. I've been manually removing and it keeps coming back, like lots of it.

it seems to be the only nutrient sink right now. No chaeto or other significant export. hence why I'm emphasizing removal. It's too much unhelpful biomass to work around.

Ok so... Nuke it with fluco and when the gha is shedding it'll feed dino more but if I can export it fast that'll shorten it. Since I already have a healthy dino population I might not notice much as the corals are dead.

yes, only qualifier is I don't actually know if fluco kills derbesia (GHA). @Reef and Dive claims experience here, and I have none with fluco except very familiar with how it handles bryopsis.
You could also rip clean the rocks a few at a time. the manual export is going to have to happen anyway at some point.

 

[Reef and Dive]

yes, only qualifier is I don't actually know if fluco kills derbesia (GHA). @Reef and Dive

It does.

It just takes longer (21 to 28 days) at 9mg/L. No skimming on the first 3 days.

Often it requires a second dosage around day 21.

Phosphates will raise around days 5-7, so at this time GFO might be required.

 

[taricha]

It has been argued that iron dosing and temp raising would help with dinos.

My perception based on reports is that iron dosing actually worsens the problem.

Taking conclusions about iron based on ICP findings also seems too dangerous to me, since it is so close the Limit of Detection on ICP-OES…

Temp raising also makes some species replicate more, so probably the temperature raising observation could be actually related to specific species.

You are almost certainly correct about Fe dosing worsening the problem. Among phytoplankton, dinos are considered to have a heavy demand for metals, especially Fe.
The whole widespread phenomenon of water changes, or trace element dosing causing a resurgence of dino growth in a stalled population is very commonly seen. Andrewey's careful observation in your first link was also very persuasive.
And your point about ICP and Fe is also correct, that it makes conclusions about actual Fe presence really difficult.
here's an ICP vendor saying they had a hard time detecting Fe, even while they were dosing it.

Temp raising is different I think, and may go in the same category as pH elevation. This works for some, but most find it doesn't. So why does it work in some cases?
I'm out of my depth here, but what I can glean from some seawater chemistry papers is that the elevation of temperature may do the same thing as pH increase regarding the form of Fe. I think it increases the rate at which Fe moves from a more useful reduced form to a less bioavailable oxidized form.
Here's where I tried to piece together info from a paper on this effect

The metals / Iron availability angle. pH elevation changes the form and availability of metals that are needed such as Fe. A quick poke around makes it look like elevating temperature might have an effect in the same direction as pH increase maybe?

source Oxidation kinetics of Fe in seawater - Millero
So perhaps we are dealing with a bloom that has already plateaued due to scarce Fe etc, and then Temp is getting pushed up, that decreases(?) the Fe availability further.

So it's possible that Temp elevation, pH elevation, small h2O2 doses are all playing the same game vs dinos - making what little Fe there is into less bioavaliable forms. If true this would have also been one reason why Ozone / high ORP likely kept a lot of dinos away. Sidenote: it may be worth it to ask if a little chemical Redox modification (permanganate, I think) is a game we could get away with playing.

 

[BanjoBandito]

The rip clean protocol is a common remedy on small/medium tank. IIRC this is a 220G.

That big of a tank, with those problems....seems easier (to me) just to rip it and reboot. Personal opinion. It's a reboot.

 

[Biff0rz]

That big of a tank, with those problems....seems easier (to me) just to rip it and reboot. Personal opinion. It's a reboot.

So I did use chemiclean about two months ago, all the gha I had at the time died off... But then came back. My fear is, what if I reboot and that happens again? Honestly, what causes gha to grow like this? I literally weigh the food I feed my fish to the gram.

 

[BanjoBandito]

So I did use chemiclean about two months ago, all the gha I had at the time died off... But then came back. My fear is, what if I reboot and that happens again? Honestly, what causes gha to grow like this? I literally weigh the food I feed my fish to the gram.

Your tank reminds me of this guys....it was one of the first posts I read when I joined R2R. lol.

My Experience Battling Green Hair Algae (GHA)

I wanted to share my experience battling GHA and how long it has taken me attempting to solve the issue. For those that don't want to read about the setup and circumstances of my aquarium, skip right to the Observations section. Background I have been keeping reef aquariums for many years and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ggNoRe]

Surprisingly just 24 hours after 1 dose of DinoX and a self imposed bacteria bloom my dinoflagellates greatly decreased. Now I'm getting some sort of mix of stuff on my rocks. Any ID or opinions would be appreciated.

 

[Biff0rz]

Ok, I got some fluzo in.... Willing to try it. We'll see how she goes..

 

[Biff0rz]

It does.

It just takes longer (21 to 28 days) at 9mg/L. No skimming on the first 3 days.

Often it requires a second dosage around day 21.

Phosphates will raise around days 5-7, so at this time GFO might be required.

The directions say not to use if you have a fuge/macro. My chaeto has mostly melted and I can get more...what about the fuge concern? I just have rocks in it, some pods, the dead-ish macro, and some other algea.

 

[Reef and Dive]

The directions say not to use if you have a fuge/macro. My chaeto has mostly melted and I can get more...what about the fuge concern? I just have rocks in it, some pods, the dead-ish macro, and some other algea.

Don’t worry. I have a big fuge and used many times.

Chaeto goes unharmed most of the times, but rarelly dies.

Caulerpa dies more often with fluco.

 

[Biff0rz]

Don’t worry. I have a big fuge and used many times.

Chaeto goes unharmed most of the times, but rarelly dies.

Caulerpa dies more often with fluco.

Awesome, thanks. I also connected a 1/4" rodi line to an outside air source - my skimmer takes 5/8", I assume this will cause overflows of I don't adjust it properly as I'm restricting air flow, correct? The alternative is for me to remove the seal and let it suck air from the house and the outside, though, I'm not sure how effective that'll be?

 

[Reef and Dive]

Awesome, thanks. I also connected a 1/4" rodi line to an outside air source - my skimmer takes 5/8", I assume this will cause overflows of I don't adjust it properly as I'm restricting air flow, correct? The alternative is for me to remove the seal and let it suck air from the house and the outside, though, I'm not sure how effective that'll be?

I simply turn it off the first 3 days.

 

[Biff0rz]

I simply turn it off the first 3 days.

60 hours left of the first 72. It can take 2-3 weeks to see results, right? How will I know if I should do a second dose?

 

[Reef and Dive]

60 hours left of the first 72. It can take 2-3 weeks to see results, right? How will I know if I should do a second dose?

On day 21, if you still have remaining algae alive. Remember to monitor phosphate (it raises as algae dies). Removing the dead or dying algae helps.

 

[ggNoRe]

My tank looking good after one more DinoX + artificial bacteria bloom.

 

[Biff0rz]

On day 21, if you still have remaining algae alive. Remember to monitor phosphate (it raises as algae dies). Removing the dead or dying algae helps.

Thanks. Not much to kill with the raised po4 but I'll still monitor it and such.

 

[Biff0rz]

On day 21, if you still have remaining algae alive. Remember to monitor phosphate (it raises as algae dies). Removing the dead or dying algae helps.

Am I dealing with dino yet? I saw a gooey string coming off one of the mostly dead corals, put it under the scope: