Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

I guess this is just what this tank is going to do. I didn’t microscope it, but it’s exactly the same stuff as last time. Figured I’d be past this point in a tank almost a year old. I’ll let you guys know how it goes. We’ll see if dinox performs again.

You are probably right, but I would microscope it anyway. Even after years of looking at these things, the microscope sometimes proves my eyeballs got fooled.

(general comment: Dino-x is just a strong algacide. There is nothing remotely "dino" specific about it. Many have side effects and livestock losses from it. Though it may work for some, for others it just kills coral and the dinos stick around)

I can say for a fact that neither my nitrates or phosphates bottomed out. I test twice a week. Nitrates have been between 2-5, and phosphates have been between .05 and .1 there have been no disturbances, no major deaths, and only gentle siphoning of 1/4 of my sandbed at the first of the month. So as far as I can tell, I didn’t do anything “wrong”. But here we are again.

During a bloom of dinos, when conditions go unfavorable, some will form cysts and reappear weeks or months later when something changes to be more favorable - water changes, trace elements, temp, etc etc. But the population that re-emerges form cysts is much smaller than the original bloom, so this should be considered a step forward, not back.

 

[Kongar]

During a bloom of dinos, when conditions go unfavorable, some will form cysts and reappear weeks or months later when something changes to be more favorable - water changes, trace elements, temp, etc etc. But the population that re-emerges form cysts is much smaller than the original bloom, so this should be considered a step forward, not back.

So I appreciate this last comment a lot. I think this is exactly what happened, and your advice gives me hope. It is 100% the same stuff even though I didn’t scope it this time. Not sure I ever got a positive id last time, but I’d know it better than my own mother at this point

But regardless, they started out very meekly this time. The cyst thing makes sense. UV helped, but didn’t eradicate - I recently posted in my build thread that it had gotten dirty and I figured it was ineffective - so I pulled it out. Maybe the uv wasn’t effective and that allowed them to get a small foothold. I do know they were awfully stubborn last time and nothing worked except Dinox. I know it’s a hammer solution, but I want to nip it in the bud. So I cleaned up the uv, put it back in service, and hit the tank last night with a dose of dinox. Things look noticeably better already this morning. Corals, fish, and inverts are all happy.

What’s funny is that I have a gold hammer. That coral almost died the last go around. Frankly, I can’t believe it’s still alive. That coral receded into itself days before there were any signs of dinos returning - it knew... I think I have a canary in the coal mine...

 

[saltyhog]

My canary is my purple stylophora. It's the first coral to show signs of toxicity.

 

[ScottB]

Funny. We all have our own canaries. I have one no-name tenuis that panics quickly. Also, a duncan that displays any irritation quite visibly.

 

[IllusionalTA]

I’m not sure what I’m dealing with, it looks like dinos as it has a stringy appearance not many bubbles, under a scope they look round, but they don’t move like I’ve seen in others posts..

 

[ScottB]

I’m not sure what I’m dealing with, it looks like dinos as it has a stringy appearance not many bubbles, under a scope they look round, but they don’t move like I’ve seen in others posts..

When removed from the water, does it come out gelatinous?
What level of magnification is this? 1200X?

If so, you might be joining me in a relatively exclusive (and annoyed) club.

Symbiodinium. Got any treatment ideas?

While it looks kinda similar to ostreopsis in the tank, it is very different under the scope. They are VERY small and completely motionless. They are easily basted or siphoned away but return the next day. They don't stick to coral flesh, but do stick to everything else. I FEEL like they are...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[IllusionalTA]

When removed from the water, does it come out gelatinous?
What level of magnification is this? 1200X?

If so, you might be joining me in a relatively exclusive (and annoyed) club.

Symbiodinium. Got any treatment ideas?

While it looks kinda similar to ostreopsis in the tank, it is very different under the scope. They are VERY small and completely motionless. They are easily basted or siphoned away but return the next day. They don't stick to coral flesh, but do stick to everything else. I FEEL like they are...

www.reef2reef.com

Oh yes, hard to get ahold of, and it’s yes, 1200x..

 

[ScottB]

Oh yes, hard to get ahold of, and it’s yes, 1200x..

Sorry. Welcome to the cool kids club. You are welcome to hop on my thread or start your own. These are sometimes called chrysophytes. Hopefully you come across some treatment methods that I have not.

Take a look at my thread for pictures to see if we have a match. I also have a weak "theory" which may or may not have legs. Lastly, I can share that UV is no help at all.

 

[IllusionalTA]

Sorry. Welcome to the cool kids club. You are welcome to hop on my thread or start your own. These are sometimes called chrysophytes. Hopefully you come across some treatment methods that I have not.

Take a look at my thread for pictures to see if we have a match. I also have a weak "theory" which may or may not have legs. Lastly, I can share that UV is no help at all.

Haha yes I have a huge uv , this stuff don’t care. Read that entire thread, what’s your theory!?

 

[JayinToronto]

I'm a year and a half out from my dino experience. Still find myself consumed with phosphate testing as I'm trying to bring balance back to my system (refugium back on line, no more dosing nitrates or phosphates). How often should I be checking my phosphate? I'm really just trying to find the balance between nutrients in (food) vs nutrients out (protein skimmer and refugium). Still find it to be a bit of a yoyo. I'm testing every couple of days still as I'm so scared to bottom out anything every again. Despite consistent ins and outs my phosphate still tests between .1 and .2 on any given day. Thoughts?

 

[taricha]

Still find it to be a bit of a yoyo. I'm testing every couple of days still as I'm so scared to bottom out anything every again. Despite consistent ins and outs my phosphate still tests between .1 and .2 on any given day. Thoughts?

Do you have aragonite sand? I'm guessing for most people this serves to buffer PO4 levels in the water, as the CaCO3 can bind and release large amounts of PO4 from and to the water. This makes it harder for PO4 to change much in many tanks.

 

[JayinToronto]

Do you have aragonite sand? I'm guessing for most people this serves to buffer PO4 levels in the water, as the CaCO3 can bind and release large amounts of PO4 from and to the water. This makes it harder for PO4 to change much in many tanks.

Yes I do. I’ve now started suctioning a small portion of it every week with my weekly 10 % water change. I have the sand divided up into 4 sections. I have so much live rock in my system I would guess that I’m only suctioning about 10% of the sand weekly. It’s crazy how much brown crud I’m getting out of it. I started this early February.

 

[ScottB]

Yes I do. I’ve now started suctioning a small portion of it every week with my weekly 10 % water change. I have the sand divided up into 4 sections. I have so much live rock in my system I would guess that I’m only suctioning about 10% of the sand weekly. It’s crazy how much brown crud I’m getting out of it. I started this early February.

I am a believer in a managed sand bed. My rock is on pylons, so I can blast the sand even under/around rocks.

Given the range of PO4 you are at, you could safely drop back to once a week testing. As @taricha says your aragonite rock and sand is a great buffer. Like a battery backup of PO4 that can release PO4 back to the water if the water column gets too clean.

 

[hans4811]

UV is your most valuable tool against ostreopsis. 1 watt per 3 gallons with very slow flow to maximise contact time. Slow like 1/2 the speed the manufacturer recommends.

You won't like this, but you should run the UV directly into/out of the display. It is very temporary. Couple weeks and you should be done.

Thanks for this @ScottB ... just ID'd my brown, slimy little friend...ostreopsis ! Here to join this sad club... ;( Mine was from bottoming out my nutrients when I switched sumps with a refugium and was dosing NoPox and PhosphateRx prior to that switch. I think the refugium put me over the edge..idk.
Started throwing MB7 and Phyto at it, brought my nutrients back up to about 5 n03 and 0.15 p04, little help, but still lingering, so....

Just ordered a LifeGard Pro-Max 25 watt unit for my70g tank/sump, true water volume will be about 60 gallons.

I used this web site to help with calculations, may help someone else: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html#whatsize

Looking at the Lifeguard Pro-Max 25 wattage which has a max flow rate of 1000gph, rated for a 130 gal aquarium.

According to that article...
LEVEL 2 STERILIZATION= 10gph x 25Watt= 250 ÷ 60gph = 4.1 x turnover, which is more than adequate level 2 sterilization of their suggestion of 2.5 to 3 x turnover rate.

Plan to run mine directly in/out of DT temporarily at about a 3x turnover rate, as I have a pump laying around that'll be close to that 180gph mark...fingers crossed.

Great information here and appreciate it !

​

 

[ScottB]

Thanks for this @ScottB ... just ID'd my brown, slimy little friend...ostreopsis ! Here to join this sad club... ;( Mine was from bottoming out my nutrients when I switched sumps with a refugium and was dosing NoPox and PhosphateRx prior to that switch. I think the refugium put me over the edge..idk.
Started throwing MB7 and Phyto at it, brought my nutrients back up to about 5 n03 and 0.15 p04, little help, but still lingering, so....

Just ordered a LifeGard Pro-Max 25 watt unit for my70g tank/sump, true water volume will be about 60 gallons.

I used this web site to help with calculations, may help someone else: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html#whatsize

Looking at the Lifeguard Pro-Max 25 wattage which has a max flow rate of 1000gph, rated for a 130 gal aquarium.

According to that article...
LEVEL 2 STERILIZATION= 10gph x 25Watt= 250 ÷ 60gph = 4.1 x turnover, which is more than adequate level 2 sterilization of their suggestion of 2.5 to 3 x turnover rate.

Plan to run mine directly in/out of DT temporarily at about a 3x turnover rate, as I have a pump laying around that'll be close to that 180gph mark...fingers crossed.

Great information here and appreciate it !

​

Bring somebody in to issue last rights to the ostreos as their time is about up. You should run some granular activated carbon. The toxins they produce can cause tips to burn in my experience.

I have now an integrated 300G frag system composed of 3 tanks and 3 sumps. It began as 1 tank with sump. EVERY SINGLE TIME I added a new tank or sump -- BAM! Ostreopsis.

I can smell an ostreopsis outbreak from two counties away now.

 

[Kongar]

Update on my hammer solution approach:

Well, it's been about a week and a half since I started treatment on my re-occurrence of dinos. The dinos appeared to be the exact same type as before (to the naked eye) in both appearance and behavior. I ID'd them as prorocentrum when I scoped them originally (I could clearly see the circle in the center). I did this with the PDF guide. Someone mentioned maybe they were a weird type (I'd have to go back in the thread and look up the name), but I dunno, it's probably just a common type. Anyway, they were very stubborn (and toxic) the first time around, so I went right to the treatment that "worked" before. Or at least what worked at keeping them away for three months.

The treatment:
1) siphoned out as many dinos as I could, stirred the sand up a bit
2) reinstalled UV, and removed carbon
3) Stopped water changes and trace elements (all for reef). Switched to kalkwasser drip to maintain alk
4) 3 day blackout (after a couple of doses of dinox had knocked them back a bit)
5) 3ml of DinoX every other night (20 gal tank - 16-17 gallons of water after rock and sand)
6) Running skimmer 24/7
7) Lastly, my nitrates started to get low mid treatment (like still registering on a test kit - but dangerously close to 0), so I dosed 6ml of neonitro on day 3 of treatment to bring the nitrates up to about 8.

It's important to note that I believe all steps are necessary - not performing one allows the dinos to hang on. I've noticed I have to kill all trace element additions or they hang on (I cannot use all for reef for alk control - I have to switch to kalkwasser). A blackout needs to occur to put the final nail in the coffin (they seem to be able to still multiply if the lights stay on). I strongly feel if I skipped any of these steps, it wouldn't work.

I've now done 6 doses of dinox. It took 2 doses to see any progress. It took 5 doses until they were no longer visible anywhere. Dose 6 was the "I really hate you - take that" dose =\ I turned my lights back on today. No traces of dinos anywhere, and they haven't come back with lights on (which usually happens within an hour). If this positive state continues, I'll do a small water change this weekend. I'll probably switch back to all for reef tonight because kalkwasser is so messy and I can't keep the drip rate consistent.

My fish are fine. Inverts are fine. My corals are not happy, but they are ok. They started showing signs of stress from the dinox after the 4th dose. Again, very similar to last time. I went 8 doses last time, I think I'll stop at 6 this time. I have SPS and acros in the tank now (didn't before) - I wondered how they would fare. They are mad, and retracted, but no bleaching or other signs of tissue loss. Their polyps extended when the lights came back on - but only about halfway out. I think once I do a water change and start running carbon to remove the dinox - then they'll be happier.

I'm hoping this keeps the dinos at bay for a while. While clearly a little stressful for the inhabitants, it's much less stressful than the dinos taking over the tank like last time. If I have to do this a few times a year forever, it's not that bad and I can live with that. I'd rather they go away and stay away, but a man can dream can't he? I know every situation is different, and what works in one tank doesn't work in another. But I wanted to share what's working for me and give some exact doses and exact timelines for others to consider if they go this route.

I also welcome any debate and discussion on my methods here. I'm by no means an expert - you all are. It's just been SUCH a long battle for me, I'm just happy to have progress not once, but twice. Willing to share any and all information if it helps others understand these little buggers.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the single best thread on the internet!

 

[ScottB]

Dose 6 was the "I really hate you - take that" dose =\

Too funny.

Dino-X has a mixed perception around here but I am glad you found something that works for you. Thanks for sharing the detail. Some species are decidedly more difficult to control than others -- LC amphidinium in particular. Your critters might well have been LC amphids. Even with microscope images, I have confused them with prorocentrum.

In terms of keeping them gone, many have taken various steps toward enhancing the diversity of microcritters in their biome. Old sump rock from another system, mud/crud/rubble. IPSF.com has a bunch of packaged offerings.

Dinos are never gone. We all have them, from the moment we start putting live stuff in the system (IMO). They need to be outcompeted. Source the competition and then feed the competition.

 

[Kongar]

LC amphidinium in particular. Your critters might well have been LC amphids. Even with microscope images, I have confused them with prorocentrum.

Entirely possible. I thought they were LC amphids at first. But then I kept looking under the microscope and I kept seeing that circular disk (is it a cylinder through the cell?) in the center of the cell. I did also see some almond shaped ones that moved funny - pretty sure they were ostreopsis, but only a very small number from a sample in a different spot (on the rocks and not from the sand), and they seemed to be overpowered by the sand slime ones eventually, never to be seen again. But what the heck do I know? All I know, is that I did all the things here in this thread, and it wasn't working. I was ready to quit the hobby, and I was quite bummed. So ya, I went dinox as a last ditch effort, and things finally turned around. I don't dinox is solely responsible, but I do think in combination with the other things, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Not advocating it unless it's the final straw. It clearly stresses out corals (and some inverts), and I feel if you do it wrong, you can easily wipe out colonies. For example, if I figured on 20 gallons of water instead of the actual 16ish gallons of water in the tank, I'd overdose and I think that would be enough to kill something. It's definitely a hammer solution, and it seems to be powerful stuff. But I share because battling dinos sux so bad, I figure someone else might be as desperate as me, and sharing information is good.

Thanks to guys like yourself who are so active in this thread helping us noobs out - means a lot.

 

[hans4811]

Bring somebody in to issue last rights to the ostreos as their time is about up. You should run some granular activated carbon. The toxins they produce can cause tips to burn in my experience.

I have now an integrated 300G frag system composed of 3 tanks and 3 sumps. It began as 1 tank with sump. EVERY SINGLE TIME I added a new tank or sump -- BAM! Ostreopsis.

I can smell an ostreopsis outbreak from two counties away now.

Yup, have been running carbon. Just lost my fav Torch coral yesterday to this dang stuff !! Everything else is shrunk up, even my GSP hasn't shown itself in days, which is my canary.

I tell you what, I must have thought a dozen times during the day, man this just isn't worth it anymore, this is becoming a J-O-B and not a hobby ! Bout folded my tents after my Torch bit it....so this is def a last ditch effort.

 

[ScottB]

Yup, have been running carbon. Just lost my fav Torch coral yesterday to this dang stuff !! Everything else is shrunk up, even my GSP hasn't shown itself in days, which is my canary.

I tell you what, I must have thought a dozen times during the day, man this just isn't worth it anymore, this is becoming a J-O-B and not a hobby ! Bout folded my tents after my Torch bit it....so this is def a last ditch effort.

Hang in there. The Promax will get it done.