Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

fishhead1973

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Hello there as a old school reefer dinos are a new thing for me back in the days we never had to worry about. I’am here to offer you some advice. 1 raise your temp to 79 and keep it there. 2 stop using any chemicals do the natural approach. Do a black out for 3 or 4 days. do your 20 to 25 percent water change ever week the only thing I use for filter media is carbon and phosphate remover.
 

fishhead1973

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Another note: forgot to mention it seems very toxic as all my cleanup crew died.
Ok here is a video, this is 900x on my scope. It is just a kids set so its not the best, but you can see whatever it is moving around.


I asked a marine biologist that works at Tampa Bay aquarium she says it’s the tank temp she said a lot of people choose to run there tank at 78 when in fact 80 is idea.
 

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I removed a ton of gha and cyano. This is what was showing the next day (I am in the uglies). Take action or hold tight? (tank is 6mo old)
 

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jarviz

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I removed a ton of gha and cyano. This is what was showing the next day (I am in the uglies). Take action or hold tight? (tank is 6mo old)
dang taht's a lot of dinos. i would think you need to take action. What do you expect to happen if you just hold tight? I'm assuming you run a super low nutrient system right?
 

Biff0rz

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dang taht's a lot of dinos. i would think you need to take action. What do you expect to happen if you just hold tight? I'm assuming you run a super low nutrient system right?
Well, I'm not sure if it's dino's or more cyano, today it came back red. And it's not all over the sandbed. Again I'm in the uglies so it's a weird area. My nitrates are usually 5-10ppm consistently and p04 has been sitting at .07 recently. I should probably buy a microscope and confirm it more.
 

ScottB

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Well, I'm not sure if it's dino's or more cyano, today it came back red. And it's not all over the sandbed. Again I'm in the uglies so it's a weird area. My nitrates are usually 5-10ppm consistently and p04 has been sitting at .07 recently. I should probably buy a microscope and confirm it more.
A microscope is great to have on hand. Kind of a pain to figure out initially unless you have previous experience, but I probably use mine once a week. There is always something new to look at even though my system is "older".

IMO, the manual removal you are doing is still the best action to take at this point for a young biome. Avoid Chemiclean; that is the fastest way to ensure you will get dinos IMO. Half the people in this thread got here with Chemiclean. The other half used GFO to get here.
 

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Well, I'm not sure if it's dino's or more cyano, today it came back red. And it's not all over the sandbed. Again I'm in the uglies so it's a weird area. My nitrates are usually 5-10ppm consistently and p04 has been sitting at .07 recently. I should probably buy a microscope and confirm it more.
If you want immediate confirmation, you could try the coffee filter test.

Suck up some of the snotty stuff along with say 1/2 cup tank water in a sealable jar. Shake it like mad so the snot dissolves. Pour this solution through a coffee filter into another jar. It should be reasonably clear now. Place under a decent light source for an hour. If the snot congeals, welcome to the club.
 

Biff0rz

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If you want immediate confirmation, you could try the coffee filter test.

Suck up some of the snotty stuff along with say 1/2 cup tank water in a sealable jar. Shake it like mad so the snot dissolves. Pour this solution through a coffee filter into another jar. It should be reasonably clear now. Place under a decent light source for an hour. If the snot congeals, welcome to the club.
Let's say I determine it is dinos. Based on the tank maturity what would I do? Normal course of action with the type of dino?
 

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Let's say I determine it is dinos. Based on the tank maturity what would I do? Normal course of action with the type of dino?
Yes I suppose so. Most of the protocols are not that disruptive. It is mainly about supporting competitive organisms like diatoms, film algae, film bacteria. Even cyano to some degree. And if you have a free swimming species, some strong UV.
 

saltyhog

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Hello there as a old school reefer dinos are a new thing for me back in the days we never had to worry about. I’am here to offer you some advice. 1 raise your temp to 79 and keep it there. 2 stop using any chemicals do the natural approach. Do a black out for 3 or 4 days. do your 20 to 25 percent water change ever week the only thing I use for filter media is carbon and phosphate remover.

My normal tank temp has averaged 79.5 since I started it and it hasn't prevented or helped my dino issues unfortunately.

Blackouts have only killed corals (that were already stressed by dinos). There is evidence that blackouts can cause dinos to encyst. They have no trouble surviving complete darkness from what I've seen. Yes, their appearance will improve....temporarily, but it's not an avenue to eliminate them IMO.
 

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Hello there as a old school reefer dinos are a new thing for me back in the days we never had to worry about. I’am here to offer you some advice. 1 raise your temp to 79 and keep it there. 2 stop using any chemicals do the natural approach. Do a black out for 3 or 4 days. do your 20 to 25 percent water change ever week the only thing I use for filter media is carbon and phosphate remover.
As a new guy to the hobby, I'm going to respectfully point out something I've learned this past year about newbies vs old schoolers. I think the folks who have been doing this forever sort of forget what it's like to be a noob at this. Their tanks also followed a different path back then - you used live rock from the ocean, and if you started a tank today, you naturally seed your dry rock in your existing sumps. You're dealing with a set of new reefers who are told "use dry rock so you don't get pests, feed just a speck of food everyday, keep your nitrates and phosphates at 1 and .03, use all this equipment and chemicals in reactors so everything is sterile water" Then we're shocked to see this MASSIVE dino outbreak, and wondering what we did wrong when we kept everything so clean. I didn't even know what dinos were until after I had them for months. By then it was too late, it was worse than anything I think you saw "back in the day" and it was the new balance for the tank (just a dino farm, and everything else dead - algae can't even grow or get a foothold because the dinos have consumed every bit of nutrients in the system).

This state of affairs seems to be common amongst new reefers, and I dare say even surprises some old schoolers when they try a bare bottom, dry rock, new build. The trick is the old schoolers recognize what's going on much faster than us noobs, and they fix the issue - they add live rock, they add bacteria, they promote algae growth, they add UV properly - all BEFORE it gets way out of control. A noob like myself doesn't do this because they don't know - it's not until they come out the other side of a seriously massive outbreak, that they then realize "oh, I C now. I could have made this a little thing by promoting these natural things early in the battle. Sure could have made my life easier if I did these things"

My point is - sometimes advice like you've given might be ineffective for those of us that have really gotten ourselves into a dino jam. I can tell you that raising the temp in my tank did absolutely nothing. Blackouts did nothing but weaken them, and that didn't matter because there wasn't anything else alive in the tank to take over besides the weakend dinos when the lights came back on. Water changes just gave the dinos the trace elements they needed to keep going. Inappropriate use of phosphate remover might be how we kickstarted the dinos in the first place. Your advice is correct for someone who understands what a stable tank is, and can recognize dinos in the earliest stage. For someone who's new, they probably need to take some more drastic measures to reset the balance. For me, it was hitting them with a hammer solution - dinox (at the prodding of a fellow member here). THEN, once I've upset the dino foothold, was the time to take your advice in earnest.

Just saying it's complicated when you're a noob, and you worked really hard at building a completely sterile tank and didn't know that's what you were doing (and you shouldn't have).
 
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chadfish

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Yes I suppose so. Most of the protocols are not that disruptive. It is mainly about supporting competitive organisms like diatoms, film algae, film bacteria. Even cyano to some degree. And if you have a free swimming species, some strong UV.
Part of every protocol I’ve read includes the addition of “beneficial bacteria”. What exactly is meant by that? Vibrant? Most of the bacteria solutions sold are nitrifying and meant for cycling at startup.
 

ChrisOFL

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Part of every protocol I’ve read includes the addition of “beneficial bacteria”. What exactly is meant by that? Vibrant? Most of the bacteria solutions sold are nitrifying and meant for cycling at startup.
I'm willing to claim that Microbacter Clean was a major factor in getting rid if dinos for me. From the first dose I noticed a difference after seeing no change for 3 weeks previously.
 

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Part of every protocol I’ve read includes the addition of “beneficial bacteria”. What exactly is meant by that? Vibrant? Most of the bacteria solutions sold are nitrifying and meant for cycling at startup.
I'll try to simplify the treatment protocols out there today into two major camps. The first, I understand and have deployed successfully. The second, I do not understand, but have never tried it.

The first camp essentially seeks to nurture natural competitors (diatoms, bacterial film, film algae, pods, even cyano) while manually removing or sterilizing the dinos. This method works in days/weeks for 4 out of 5 dino species. Large cell amphidinium being the exception as they don't go swimming at night. Can take a long time to resolve; you might then consider the second camp for these.

The second camp are all variations on the original Elegance Coral Method which you will find on every reefing forum. It deploys bacteria, hydrogen peroxide, bubblers, Gregorian chant and native american dance ritual. To have been around so long, it has to have worked for some. That said, I've read of people micro-dosing bleach too, so there is that.

About bacteria. MOST of the time, dinos break out when nutrients levels are too low -- or drop to fast -- to keep the preferred biome organisms healthy and holding their ground. Adding in bottled bacteria (typically all nitrifying to some degree) removes more nutrient. There could be other benefits to bottled bacteria, but you need to maintain sufficient nutrient to keep the good guys alive and competing. I have seen many anecdotal advantages of supplementing bacterial diversity by adding live rock, mud, rubble and all the little microorganisms that come with them.
 

ScottB

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My normal tank temp has averaged 79.5 since I started it and it hasn't prevented or helped my dino issues unfortunately.

Blackouts have only killed corals (that were already stressed by dinos). There is evidence that blackouts can cause dinos to encyst. They have no trouble surviving complete darkness from what I've seen. Yes, their appearance will improve....temporarily, but it's not an avenue to eliminate them IMO.
Think you are right about the ability to encyst and survive blackouts depending on the species. For some though, it will encourage them to go for a swim, trying to find hospitable lighting, only then to be zapped by the UV. But you don't need 3-4 days for that to happen.
 
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chadfish

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I'll try to simplify the treatment protocols out there today into two major camps. The first, I understand and have deployed successfully. The second, I do not understand, but have never tried it.

The first camp essentially seeks to nurture natural competitors (diatoms, bacterial film, film algae, pods, even cyano) while manually removing or sterilizing the dinos. This method works in days/weeks for 4 out of 5 dino species. Large cell amphidinium being the exception as they don't go swimming at night. Can take a long time to resolve; you might then consider the second camp for these.

The second camp are all variations on the original Elegance Coral Method which you will find on every reefing forum. It deploys bacteria, hydrogen peroxide, bubblers, Gregorian chant and native american dance ritual. To have been around so long, it has to have worked for some. That said, I've read of people micro-dosing bleach too, so there is that.

About bacteria. MOST of the time, dinos break out when nutrients levels are too low -- or drop to fast -- to keep the preferred biome organisms healthy and holding their ground. Adding in bottled bacteria (typically all nitrifying to some degree) removes more nutrient. There could be other benefits to bottled bacteria, but you need to maintain sufficient nutrient to keep the good guys alive and competing. I have seen many anecdotal advantages of supplementing bacterial diversity by adding live rock, mud, rubble and all the little microorganisms that come with them.
Yeah, it’s all confusing. Adding bacteria adds diversity but reduces nutrients which could starve the dinos or starve everyone else. Just like chaeto helps with nutrient control... but is a great dino factory too.
As soon as I get them under control, I’m getting a piece of live rock and rescaping a bit.
 

fishhead1973

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As a new guy to the hobby, I'm going to respectfully point out something I've learned this past year about newbies vs old schoolers. I think the folks who have been doing this forever sort of forget what it's like to be a noob at this. Their tanks also followed a different path back then - you used live rock from the ocean, and if you started a tank today, you naturally seed your dry rock in your existing sumps. You're dealing with a set of new reefers who are told "use dry rock so you don't get pests, feed just a speck of food everyday, keep your nitrates and phosphates at 1 and .03, use all this equipment and chemicals in reactors so everything is sterile water" Then we're shocked to see this MASSIVE dino outbreak, and wondering what we did wrong when we kept everything so clean. I didn't even know what dinos were until after I had them for months. By then it was too late, it was worse than anything I think you saw "back in the day" and it was the new balance for the tank (just a dino farm, and everything else dead - algae can't even grow or get a foothold because the dinos have consumed every bit of nutrients in the system).

This state of affairs seems to be common amongst new reefers, and I dare say even surprises some old schoolers when they try a bare bottom, dry rock, new build. The trick is the old schoolers recognize what's going on much faster than us noobs, and they fix the issue - they add live rock, they add bacteria, they promote algae growth, they add UV properly - all BEFORE it gets way out of control. A noob like myself doesn't do this because they don't know - it's not until they come out the other side of a seriously massive outbreak, that they then realize "oh, I C now. I could have made this a little thing by promoting these natural things early in the battle. Sure could have made my life easier if I did these things"

My point is - sometimes advice like you've given might be ineffective for those of us that have really gotten ourselves into a dino jam. I can tell you that raising the temp in my tank did absolutely nothing. Blackouts did nothing but weaken them, and that didn't matter because there wasn't anything else alive in the tank to take over besides the weakend dinos when the lights came back on. Water changes just gave the dinos the trace elements they needed to keep going. Inappropriate use of phosphate remover might be how we kickstarted the dinos in the first place. Your advice is correct for someone who understands what a stable tank is, and can recognize dinos in the earliest stage. For someone who's new, they probably need to take some more drastic measures to reset the balance. For me, it was hitting them with a hammer solution - dinox (at the prodding of a fellow member here). THEN, once I've upset the dino foothold, was the time to take your advice in earnest.

Just saying it's complicated when you're a noob, and you worked really hard at building a completely sterile tank and didn't know that's what you were doing (and you shouldn't have).
I didn’t mean nothing bad or give them bad advice. All I am really saying keep it simple. Yes I have a 75 gallon reef tank with live rock from the ocean. But in the same sense I have a Red Sea max nano set up for lps and dry rock. with all the new tech but I still keep it simple with only kalk in the top off water. And only do carbon and phosphate remover. All I am saying stop with the snake oil products and go the natural way. Am I a Dino expert now way haven’t ever had it just trying to get these new guys to take the natural approach instead of relying on the technology to take care of the tank.
 

fishhead1973

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My normal tank temp has averaged 79.5 since I started it and it hasn't prevented or helped my dino issues unfortunately.

Blackouts have only killed corals (that were already stressed by dinos). There is evidence that blackouts can cause dinos to encyst. They have no trouble surviving complete darkness from what I've seen. Yes, their appearance will improve....temporarily, but it's not an avenue to eliminate them IMO.
Next time I see my friend that is a ocean biologist works at Tampa bay aquarium i am going to see if she will do a article on dinos she may help us all understand how to eliminate them and keep them away.
 

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Just wanted to add my two cents to everything :) I don’t think it matters how you started Dino’s will come no matter what. I started with live rock (given it’s not the same quality as it was many years ago from what I’ve heard) and was cycled within a week. I stripped my water of N03 and P04 and didn’t keep up with dosing like I should and got dinos. Given it was a small outbreak as I noticed it in the beginning. I immediately started testing P04 and N03 daily and dosed P04 nightly (my nitrates are remaining high), lowered my photo period and light intensity, blowing off rocks, manual removal. A couple days ago I started dosing MB7, I haven’t gotten the nítrate drop that everyone sees but still monitoring in case I need to dose. Today I got in a 36w UV for a ~35 gal tank and I got it setup to run from lights off to lights on. IMO it’s all about husbandry. I have the ostreopsis strain so that’s why I went UV route at night. I also believe that another person with the same strain might not have as much luck or might have better luck then me. There’s too many variables in the hobby to say this works or that works. You have to try different things (often times a lot of money) and you’ll find your cure. The biggest thing is to act fast, don’t wait until it becomes an eye sore and starts damaging corals. That’s it I think :)
 
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