Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ScottB]

I just added fluconazole to my system to get rid of bryopsis and encountered something that looks similar vut not exactly like dinos, it has very few bubbles if any at all and its only in one spot on my tank. This is at 1200x couldnt magnify it more.

I am assuming you saw no movement, correct?

If so, my guess would be chrysophytes. A very light yellow/green?

I've not read much about treatment, but they don't seem to be terribly invasive nor long lasting.

 

[Marc2952]

I am assuming you saw no movement, correct?

If so, my guess would be chrysophytes. A very light yellow/green?

I've not read much about treatment, but they don't seem to be terribly invasive nor long lasting.

That seems to be it! They dont move at all, i guess itll go away by itself. As long as it aint dinos im cool with it lol

 

[Kzimmerman15]

Could anybody ID these? Not the best picture, but any help would be appreciated. No movement in these organisms that I could see.

 

[Marc2952]

Could anybody ID these? Not the best picture, but any help would be appreciated. No movement in these organisms that I could see.

See the comments up probably the same as mines not dinos.

 

[taricha]

Anyone ever experienced asthma like symptoms when having dinos in the tank? Since i have dinos (on sand only) I experience problems with breathing in my flat, when I am somewhere else I don't have any problems. My girlfriend has the same symptoms. There are some publications on Karenia brevis blooms causing asthma like symptoms. Could this also be caused by the dinos in our tanks?
I now removed all the dino affected sand and added GAC, hope that improves things. Don't want to pull down my tank because of this...

Yes, this is known to happen with ostreopsis, but is rarely reported in the hobby.
"Ostreopsis blooms in the Mediterranean Sea are commonly accompanied by respiratory problems and skin irritation in humans exposed to marine aerosol containing algal toxins and/or cells debris and seawater [9,10,11,12] due to ability of some Ostreopsis species to produce toxins. Most of these toxins belong to the palytoxin (PLTX) group. PLTX and its analogs may affect human health by ingestion of contaminated seafood, skin contact with seawater, and inhalation of marine aerosols containing Ostreopsis cell debris and/or their toxins [12,13,14].
link here

Could anybody ID these? Not the best picture, but any help would be appreciated. No movement in these organisms that I could see.

that's weird to see two of these super unusual ones in rapid succession. But I agree it looks like chrysophytes, if that's a high power image.

 

[Domi]

Yes, this is known to happen with ostreopsis, but is rarely reported in the hobby.
"Ostreopsis blooms in the Mediterranean Sea are commonly accompanied by respiratory problems and skin irritation in humans exposed to marine aerosol containing algal toxins and/or cells debris and seawater [9,10,11,12] due to ability of some Ostreopsis species to produce toxins. Most of these toxins belong to the palytoxin (PLTX) group. PLTX and its analogs may affect human health by ingestion of contaminated seafood, skin contact with seawater, and inhalation of marine aerosols containing Ostreopsis cell debris and/or their toxins [12,13,14].
link here

Oh dear, they look a lot like my dinos:


Is this ostreopsis?
Are there any quick fixes? I just switched off the skimmer so less aerosol is produced, I really have to solve this quickly, my asthma is really bad at the moment, otherwise I have to get rid of the tank.

 

[ScottB]

Oh dear, they look a lot like my dinos:


Is this ostreopsis?
Are there any quick fixes? I just switched off the skimmer so less aerosol is produced, I really have to solve this quickly, my asthma is really bad at the moment, otherwise I have to get rid of the tank.

I don't think those are ostreopsis. Leaning toward procentrum which are also toxic. Take a look at the ID guide produced by @taricha and see what you think.

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

Very sorry you both are reacting to this. Do whatever you can to move fresh air through your flat. As far as treatment:

Assuming this is procentrum (will also work for ostreopsis):
1) Hook up a UV in/out of the display itself. 1 watt per 3 gallons. Very slow flow (2-300gph max)
2) Blackout the tank for a couple days. As dark as you can make it.
3) Run GAC carbon. Change weekly. This will help sequester toxins.

Other things to think about...

a) Avoid doing anything that aerosolizes the tank water. Turn off skimmer!
b) Wear gloves or keep arms out of the tank. Rinse well if nothing else.
c) Talk to your doctor. Reference palytoxin.

I did not previously know the toxin was a palytoxin. I will be more careful next time. For months I drank ostreopsis for breakfast (slight exaggeration) and never had a reaction. But I have seen what it can do to people I work with. Guys that know better than to be casual breaking down a palythoa tank and still got hit bad. Not pretty. Granted, this is likely a very different concentration/exposure level, but your body is reacting so be careful.

 

[taricha]

@ScottB is right it's prorocentrum.
There's very little literature on prorocentrum toxins and humans. ostreopsis is more commonly reported because it blooms in big numbers in the mediterranean.
These strains all seem to have high variability of toxins. The ostreopsis I (and scottB apparently) had were low toxin, but they can be much more toxic in some tanks. Prorocentrum are also usually very toxic, they kill a lot of CUC.

 

[lakai]

Pretty frustrated. Spent a few months getting my nutrients up, overdosed po4 and they went through the roof (Unreadable by Hanna Checker). Used GFO to bring it back down to 0.14 and has been holding steady with nitrates at 10. During this time large mats of green cyano were on the sand. Vaccumed it all out and two days later boom dinos everywhere worst than ever. Dark Brown stringy and suffocating all my corals, lps are shrunk, acros starting to stn. I've had UV since day 1 and my bulb just happened to burn out after I cleaned up all the cyano.

Tank is year and half old, Just when everything was starting to come together something always comes and beats you back. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has ever beaten a large dino outbreak.

 

[DrMMI]

Pretty frustrated. Spent a few months getting my nutrients up, overdosed po4 and they went through the roof (Unreadable by Hanna Checker). Used GFO to bring it back down to 0.14 and has been holding steady with nitrates at 10. During this time large mats of green cyano were on the sand. Vaccumed it all out and two days later boom dinos everywhere worst than ever. Dark Brown stringy and suffocating all my corals, lps are shrunk, acros starting to stn. I've had UV since day 1 and my bulb just happened to burn out after I cleaned up all the cyano.

Tank is year and half old, Just when everything was starting to come together something always comes and beats you back. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has ever beaten a large dino outbreak.

So far I'm holding steady. It's been about a month since I've seen any sign of dinos in my tank. I got my nutrients up, introduced live rock from an 8yr old neglected tank that was covered in gha, and did elegance corals dino treatment for 3 weeks followed by a course of Dr. Tims. I just accidentally overdosed my nitrates, but thankfully no ill effect yet. Here are my before and after pics. My coral all look so much healthier. My btas are actually bubbling and not all stringy like they used to be.

 

[ScottB]

Pretty frustrated. Spent a few months getting my nutrients up, overdosed po4 and they went through the roof (Unreadable by Hanna Checker). Used GFO to bring it back down to 0.14 and has been holding steady with nitrates at 10. During this time large mats of green cyano were on the sand. Vaccumed it all out and two days later boom dinos everywhere worst than ever. Dark Brown stringy and suffocating all my corals, lps are shrunk, acros starting to stn. I've had UV since day 1 and my bulb just happened to burn out after I cleaned up all the cyano.

Tank is year and half old, Just when everything was starting to come together something always comes and beats you back. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone has ever beaten a large dino outbreak.

Sorry about the setback, but it is, sadly, very common. The cycle from dinos to cyano is almost a given, ideally followed by some algae. I relapsed at least three times with ostreopsis, but each time it got easier to reverse.

As @DrMMI found, what eventually (not overnight) lead to stability was about 70lbs of live rock from other systems.

 

[whallsey]

Hi all,

Would be very grateful for any tips on the following Dino/Cyano saga.

I have had dinos for about 6 months. I initially waged war with UV, ensuring nitrates and phosphates non-zero, and regular microbacter 7 and dr tims wasteaway.

After a couple of months the combination of all these things, and also a home made water filter and lots of toothbrushing and turkey baster blowing, there was a big impact, and it almost looked like it was all gone. It was the UV which swung it. What I think might have happened is that the dino species which were very susceptible to UV (and which were at that time the main issue) got nuked, and so the whole thing was a lot more manageable.

But no sooner were they almost gone then I think I had cyano replacing the dinos. Much more bubbling, in fact initially a few absolutely large bubbles about 0.5 cm in diameter. And a slightly different type of red mat - not so stringy and mucussy. The growth has subsided to a more manageable lever (by which I mean I only need to turkey baste it at the end of the day, rather than several times during the day), but I still now have red/rusty brown mats growing at a fast rate on the gravel substrate and rocks every day.

So I took the plunge and got a microscope for about £100. Attached here are pics and a video - sorry the vid is unedited and about 10 minutes long. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jlggpgmtjlsivu5/AAAu_1l_5qeqKKXDoXF9r_lfa?dl=0 . If I get a moment I will also upload the pdf which I found somewhere on this forum which I used to help me tentatively ID the microscopic images.

As far as I can see the Dinos look most like Prorocentrum, but other Dino varieties are similar looking . I am thinking that the spaghetti like structure is probably Cyano. But I don't think it is Spirulina: although it looks a bit spirally, it's more like bumps than the corkscrew images I have seen for Spirulina. The Dinos move very little, which is why I also thought they were Prorocentrum (that's what the pdf says in the dropbox folder).

After the initial waging of war, I kind of eased up thinking my job was done with Dinos and needed to think about what to do for Cyano. But probably I need to go back to the original battle plan in my second paragraph above, and just be vigilant.

Finally, as background: I'm running a 1 year old 52L EVO Fluval with 3 small fish, corals and plenty of CUC. No GFO or other chemical filtration now. I think the live rock is just a little on the light side when I look at other tanks and always wondered if that could be a contributing factor, but probably just paranoia.

Any help on ID'ing the Dinos/Cyano, and what to do next (go back to the original battle plan?) is greatly appreciated.

Thanks all

Andrew

 

[Domi]

Oh dear, they look a lot like my dinos:


Is this ostreopsis?
Are there any quick fixes? I just switched off the skimmer so less aerosol is produced, I really have to solve this quickly, my asthma is really bad at the moment, otherwise I have to get rid of the tank.

An update from my side:
Since I had this health problems associated with the dinos (prorocentrum according to @ScottB and @taricha) I had to act swift. And I have to say I was dino free within hours so far no dino was seen anymore (but it has only been a few days so will observe further). What did I do:
- Did a ~40% water change where I removed all dinos and 90% of the sand
- I had UV already running before
- Reduced red, green and whites on my hydra 26
- Added chaeto and light to the sump (had rather high nutrient levels)
- Switched of the skimmer (to avoid more aerosols)
- Increased flow

I know, many changes at once and we don't know what really did the trick in the end, but I had to really get rid of this stuff because I had serious breathing problems when in the flat. Interestingly, despite all these strong and sudden changes my corals look better than before and alk consumption increased.

 

[attiland]

Hi all,

Managed to capture a video of what I think is Dino. Unsure of the ID and the treatment after all they are back. sorry about the quality but this is an old microscope...

It is my second run of dino outbreak in my tank however I have made a mistake and wanted to clear them too quickly and did a water change after the first session together with cleaning the sand causing my Nitrate go to 0 and they are back. Not a surprise

What I have done is dosed potassium Nitrate and KH2po4 to get my levels detectable. Also running a 18W UV in 39g tank.


I have tried to use dino x to finish them off but not sure if that has done any good.

I have only a few zoa in the tank as it is quite new only 5 months old.
phosphate is about 0.5-1ppm and nitrate is 10-20ppm since it is API test I don't fully trust it but it is but not 0 what matters for now.

Can you help please?

 

[attiland]

Hi all,

Managed to capture a video of what I think is Dino. Unsure of the ID and the treatment after all they are back. sorry about the quality but this is an old microscope...

It is my second run of dino outbreak in my tank however I have made a mistake and wanted to clear them too quickly and did a water change after the first session together with cleaning the sand causing my Nitrate go to 0 and they are back. Not a surprise

What I have done is dosed potassium Nitrate and KH2po4 to get my levels detectable. Also running a 18W UV in 39g tank.


I have tried to use dino x to finish them off but not sure if that has done any good.

I have only a few zoa in the tank as it is quite new only 5 months old.
phosphate is about 0.5-1ppm and nitrate is 10-20ppm since it is API test I don't fully trust it but it is but not 0 what matters for now.

Can you help please?

Anyone? Just in case I have uploaded it to the web as I can never play with the built in player

 

[hotdrop]

What do I have at 400x no movement

 

[Kongar]

Well I posted that I beat dinos but they are back. With a vengeance. Over feeding to raise nutrients and a general hands off approach worked - for a while. After a few weeks of a beautiful looking tank, I now have the brown stringy snot growing on my sand. Long strings with bubbles on them. Looks like a different type of dinos than the LA dinos I had previously. Sigh.

I guess I’ll take the same approach, we’ll see where it gets me. Wish me luck. =\

 

[ScottB]

Anyone? Just in case I have uploaded it to the web as I can never play with the built in player

Very sorry. I have looked at this several times but cannot make out the species. I've not seen any move at that kind of pace before; they are a blur. Perhaps you can look at the guide yourself to narrow things down. @taricha composed this; check out the linked videos and pics.

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ScottB]

What do I have at 400x no movement

Unusual coloring. The pink one looks like large cell amphidinium. But I have never seen a pink one before.

Are they largely on the sand as amphids prefer?

 

[hotdrop]

Unusual coloring. The pink one looks like large cell amphidinium. But I have never seen a pink one before.

Are they largely on the sand as amphids prefer?

I have a splattering of pink ones idk 3-5% maybe the rest are the other kind.