Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Who Dah?]

Hello all,

Are these photos adequate for someone to help me identify these?

There is a somewhat shaky-cam video here too:

It took a while to land on the rig I ended up getting. So perhaps to help someone else down the road either towards or away from this rig, I present the following. There are better photos out there for sure! But this is what a ~$56 landed (after tax) rig got me if you use your own phone and omit the universal mount I attempted to use listed below.

• Equipment used
  • Samsung Galaxy S20 cell phone for taking the photos
  • $40 AmScope Kids STEM Microscope 120x-1200x. EISN B00GGY85EC. This also came with plastic slides that I used: Amazon product
  • $11 Bluetooth Camera Shutter for Cell phones to help minimize camera shake. EISN B07MR1PHPZ. Amazon product
  • I tried, but did not really use, a $19 universal cell-phone mount. The diameter of this microscope's viewing tube was too small for this particular mount. I did rig it to work with some cloth to make the diameter of the tube wider. And it worked. But then Mrs. Who Dah? came in and wanted to play with the microscope, but without the universal mount. Indeed, she was better than I at finding better focused critters than I. (Quicker too!) That said, I mostly ended up holding the cell phone over the scope after she had something in visible range while Mrs. Who Dah? clicked the shutter button on the remote to minimize camera shake. I do think the mount would help, especially if taking photos solo, but one would either need to rig something to hold this particular model on this particular microscope or get a different universal mount that can go down to about 22mm for this particular microscope: EISN B013D2ULO6 Amazon product
• Settings
  • These shots were either taken at 300x or 480x on the microscope. (I had the microscope in both modes, but didn't keep track of which photo was with which zoom.

 

[PR_nano]

Hello fellow reefers, can you help me ID these? Managed to get a better video or so I think. It appears there are two different types to my untrained eye but it could very well just be one. Trying to get a positive ID to treat accordingly.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Who Dah?]

@PR_nano I can't help with the ID, I'm seeking an ID myself. But nice video! Which Microscope are you using?

 

[PR_nano]

@Who Dah? AmScope M150c, hope it helps!

These Dino are the worst I have experienced so far. Increase NO3 to 10, lights out 60 hours, peroxide nightly, installed UV, stopped amino had a glimpse of hope but it was short lived. Now they're back, think they might be Amphidinium but not sure. Filter floss of 24 hours after blowing this stuff every couple of hours.

 

[ScottB]

Hello fellow reefers, can you help me ID these? Managed to get a better video or so I think. It appears there are two different types to my untrained eye but it could very well just be one. Trying to get a positive ID to treat accordingly.

Thanks in advance!

Amphidinium is what I see. Good news: they are not toxic and won't (alone) harm anybody. Some CUC will actually eat some dino. Bad news: they are very difficult to get rid of. They cling tight to the sand bed, so UV cannot cook them. This is the ONE dino where most of our proposed "cures" are worse than the disease.

There is a separate Amphidinium thread started by @taricha . It will give you a sense of how experimental the methods remain. I have seen no consensus method with sustained, consistent success. Removing the sand bed is one method, but again -- at least in my opinion -- that is a VERY disruptive treatment that does more biome harm than good.

 

[ScottB]

Hello fellow reefers, can you help me ID these? Managed to get a better video or so I think. It appears there are two different types to my untrained eye but it could very well just be one. Trying to get a positive ID to treat accordingly.

Thanks in advance!

I want to correct myself somewhat on what I just wrote before (about no good treatments).

There are some that have made progress using SpongeExcel (silicate dosing) to accelerate diatom growth and subsequently outcompete the amphidinium. I'd hardly call it a conclusive body of evidence, but more than a coincidence.

 

[PR_nano]

Amphidinium is what I see.

Thank you! I will look for the Amphidinium thread and see what other are doing.

 

[BrianReefer]

Need help identifying these:

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Need help identifying these:

Looks like some Ostreopsis, the way they roll around.

 

[ScottB]

Need help identifying these:

Ostreopsis for certain.

Raise NO3 to 10 (Neonito or sodium nitrate)
Raise PO4 to .1 (NeoPhos or authentic trisodium phosphate, not the fake TSP)
Install UV to/from the DISPLAY (not sump). Ugly, but temporary. 1 watt per 3 gallons. Slow flow.
Run GAC as this specie produces toxins
Clamp a bunch of filter floss in areas where they like to live. High flow, high light. Rinse each evening.
No water changes until you are clear 2 weeks.

Very likely your nutrients are zero. Depending on volume of rock you have, it may take a bottle or two of Phos to keep a stable reading. It binds to the depleted rock. Dose, test 6-12 hours later with Hanna ULR. Dose again. Dose more.

I dosed 2 liters of DIY PO4 before my rock was saturated and leaching back into the water. The reduced my dosing by 80%.

 

[BrianReefer]

Ostreopsis for certain.

Raise NO3 to 10 (Neonito or sodium nitrate)
Raise PO4 to .1 (NeoPhos or authentic trisodium phosphate, not the fake TSP)
Install UV to/from the DISPLAY (not sump). Ugly, but temporary. 1 watt per 3 gallons. Slow flow.
Run GAC as this specie produces toxins
Clamp a bunch of filter floss in areas where they like to live. High flow, high light. Rinse each evening.
No water changes until you are clear 2 weeks.

Very likely your nutrients are zero. Depending on volume of rock you have, it may take a bottle or two of Phos to keep a stable reading. It binds to the depleted rock. Dose, test 6-12 hours later with Hanna ULR. Dose again. Dose more.

I dosed 2 liters of DIY PO4 before my rock was saturated and leaching back into the water. The reduced my dosing by 80%.

Thank you! I've been battling this for months but never bothered to microscope it. My Phosphate is above .1 on the Hannha ULR, my Nitrate has been around 5 (i'll raise it to 10 with sodium nitrate). I have a 57w AquaUV plumbed in the sump return but i've been running a separate hose from the bottom of the display to the sump to get the lower layer of water/dinos into the sump and UV. I have an AWC that I'll turn off. But these things have been resilient, and I'm not sure increasing Nitrates from 5 to 10 and turning off AWC will make the difference, do you? I also just started silicate dosing and bought the Hanna ULR Silicate tester to try to outcompete them with a diatoms. Any thoughts on that? Thank you!

 

[ScottB]

Thank you! I've been battling this for months but never bothered to microscope it. My Phosphate is above .1 on the Hannha ULR, my Nitrate has been around 5 (i'll raise it to 10 with sodium nitrate). I have a 57w AquaUV plumbed in the sump return but i've been running a separate hose from the bottom of the display to the sump to get the lower layer of water/dinos into the sump and UV. I have an AWC that I'll turn off. But these things have been resilient, and I'm not sure increasing Nitrates from 5 to 10 and turning off AWC will make the difference, do you? I also just started silicate dosing and bought the Hanna ULR Silicate tester to try to outcompete them with a diatoms. Any thoughts on that? Thank you!

Hmmmm. I am a little surprised that you've not made progress over that period with ostreopsis. And I agree, adding 5 more parts of nitrate are unlikely to change things. Shutting AWC should help a little.

You mention silicates, and you mention the feed hose running to lower parts of the tank. Are these dinos preferring lower levels and the sand bed? Might have a mix of dinos then. It is common to have a mix, but in the movie I only saw ostreos. Large Cell amphids live in the sand and don't release. UV doesn't help with that species.

UV is the best tool typically for ostreopsis. So let's talk about that.
a) Size wise 57 watts should work up to almost 200G. Got more volume?
b) Any chance the bulb is toast? They recommend replacing every 12 months. I had a pump quit once and burn out a 3 month old bulb from overheating.
c) Rate of flow matters. You want to maximize contact time, so run the flow as slow as Aqua UV allows.
d) This point I don't really have a solid explanation for, but it is the shared experience of many here: plumbing the UV directly TO/FROM the display is optimal. Dinos are not free floating cells like algaes or some parasites. They are purposeful swimmers, seeking optimal feeding locations.
e) I think if you combine factors c & d, you get a stronger argument for running to/from the display. I am going to guess you are running >300GPH thru your return, right? Think MaxJet type flow rates.

If you line up all the treatment levers correctly, ostreopsis can be well managed inside 4 weeks for sure. They are never really gone, but I don't intervene or run UV against them any longer.

 

[BrianReefer]

So I think you’re right and I probably have more than one type then. The majority of my dinos seem to be on the sand. The sample I took was hard to find, there isn’t much of it around the tank, maybe because of my effective other methods / UV. But the sand gets real dark during the day (see pics...and it’s just brown on sand, not stringy either) and clears up at night, so I assume I have another type down there. I guess I need to sample that one too?

 

[BrianReefer]

Hmmmm. I am a little surprised that you've not made progress over that period with ostreopsis. And I agree, adding 5 more parts of nitrate are unlikely to change things. Shutting AWC should help a little.

You mention silicates, and you mention the feed hose running to lower parts of the tank. Are these dinos preferring lower levels and the sand bed? Might have a mix of dinos then. It is common to have a mix, but in the movie I only saw ostreos. Large Cell amphids live in the sand and don't release. UV doesn't help with that species.

UV is the best tool typically for ostreopsis. So let's talk about that.
a) Size wise 57 watts should work up to almost 200G. Got more volume?
b) Any chance the bulb is toast? They recommend replacing every 12 months. I had a pump quit once and burn out a 3 month old bulb from overheating.
c) Rate of flow matters. You want to maximize contact time, so run the flow as slow as Aqua UV allows.
d) This point I don't really have a solid explanation for, but it is the shared experience of many here: plumbing the UV directly TO/FROM the display is optimal. Dinos are not free floating cells like algaes or some parasites. They are purposeful swimmers, seeking optimal feeding locations.
e) I think if you combine factors c & d, you get a stronger argument for running to/from the display. I am going to guess you are running >300GPH thru your return, right? Think MaxJet type flow rates.

If you line up all the treatment levers correctly, ostreopsis can be well managed inside 4 weeks for sure. They are never really gone, but I don't intervene or run UV against them any longer.

Ok I went into the sand and got a few more pics. Thoughts?

 

[ScottB]

Ok I went into the sand and got a few more pics. Thoughts?

Okay. Saw one ostreopsis, a few large cell amphidinium, some diatoms (good), what MAYBE small cell amphidinium and then those buggers with the squared off ends. I've seen those before, but not sure the species ID on that. @taricha is my go to for anything atypical.

There is another active splinter thread on amphidinium you can check into which taricha created. That is where silicate dosing is discussed positively by many.

Large cell amphids are not toxic; I would not knock myself out trying to manage them. Silicate dosing is fine, but I would go pulling the sand bed just because it looks dirty. Left alone the are just as likely to resolve on their own over time.

 

[taricha]

The squared off ends I would say are diatoms though I may be fooled by a slightly fuzzy focus.

 

[Josh Baranowski]

Hoping someone could help with an ID here, I think I'm dealing with Amphidinium, maybe also prorocentrum? Not 100% sure. Any help is much appreciated!

 

[ScottB]

Hoping someone could help with an ID here, I think I'm dealing with Amphidinium, maybe also prorocentrum? Not 100% sure. Any help is much appreciated!

Good pic. I see LC Amphidinium as you do. Not sure I see procentrum.

 

[Josh Baranowski]

Good pic. I see LC Amphidinium as you do. Not sure I see procentrum.

Phew, just me imagining things I guess. Currently on I think the second week of silicate dosing and increased nutrients, not much improvement, but I don't think they have gotten worse.

 

[ScottB]

Phew, just me imagining things I guess. Currently on I think the second week of silicate dosing and increased nutrients, not much improvement, but I don't think they have gotten worse.

Look on the bright side -- they are not toxic critters like the others. Just ugly. These take a long time to be outcompeted so don't beat urself up too much about seeing little progress.