Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[RedneckReefer68]

Which dinos do you have and how long has thw hair algae been growing?

ostreopsis(SP?) Some places 2-3 inches my snails look like hippies is so long on their shell [emoji16]

 

[JAMSOURY]

Did you guys dose nitrate and phosphate to levels immediately, or over time?

I was thinking if I dosed slowly, that the Dino’s would eat it up really quick

 

[J Rog]

Did you guys dose nitrate and phosphate to levels immediately, or over time?

I was thinking if I dosed slowly, that the Dino’s would eat it up really quick

I dosed a bit at a time. Everything in the tank sucks it up pretty fast. But the N03 seemed to level out and I haven’t had to dose in about a week or so. I’m still having to dose P04. I dosed P04 4 days ago. I measured 24 hours after the dose and it was at .11. Tested 2 days later and it was back at .02

 

[reeferfoxx]

ostreopsis(SP?) Some places 2-3 inches my snails look like hippies is so long on their shell [emoji16]

When my tank got to this point,


(thats hair algae with dinos(coolia spp) growing)
I stopped dosing nutrients, alk, ca, and mag. Stopped water changes. Stopped caring. Almost ripped the tank down. After 2 weeks of not doing anything, things started looking better. So I started cleaning the tank. Still no water changes. Then after a month...



Try that. Monitor your fish. My fish started looking rough about the 25th day. If they look real bad, do a 5% change.

Did you guys dose nitrate and phosphate to levels immediately, or over time?

I was thinking if I dosed slowly, that the Dino’s would eat it up really quick

I built my nutrients up in 3 to 4 days.

 

[Bob Lauson]

I have been battling osteropsis for the last four months. I did a blackout and thought I had them beat. I added some live sand back in and immediately witnessed the dinos taking it over like their personal sauna. I bought a cheap 1200x microscope on Amazon for $15 to confirm. I have always dosed kalk and keep the pH at around 8.4. This the my third aquarium (due to moving ) but the the first I started with dry rock. (I really liked the rock I had in my last aquarium so saved it to start again.). My tank is 180 gallons with a 50 gallon sump.

I am currently using a Vibrant. I am also dosing H2O2. Tonight I added 7 ml of NeoPhos to start to raise my PO4. My current parameters are 0.05 PO4 (prior to the NeoPhos) and 25 ppm NO3. I vacuum out the dinos and they rerun almost immediately. My immediate plan is to get the phosphate to around 0.1 to 0.15 (mostly because I am out of ideas) and keep the Vibrant and H202 dosing. I have also ordered some 10 micron filter socks to replace the 100 micron I have historically used.

I have started reading this thread from the start and am trying to simply extract some core common denominators and employ them. I am on the verge of doing another 3 day blackout to weaken this evil dino invasion.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Vibrant

H2O2

I am on the verge of doing another 3 day blackout

None of these things are necessary. Just stick to dosing nutrients. Maybe implement a UV sterlizer.

 

[Bob Lauson]

None of these things are necessarily. Just stick to dosing nutrients. Maybe implement a UV sterlizer.

Thank you for the response. In all sincerity-how do we know what is right? Are the things I am doing hurting? I have no idea. Response seems to be 30% success with Vibrant and/or H2O2 dosing. I am trying a limited shotgun approach ( if such a high thing is possible).

I am really trying to be patient but long for the days on my past aquariums started with live rock where my wife and I could enjoy a clean aquarium with glass of wine and talk about the day. Now I look at my aquarium and resist the urge to try some nuclear option.

 

[saltyhog]

Vibrant seemed to be a causative or at least coincidental factor in my ostreopsis. I dosed PO4 to 0.1-0.15 and nitrate to 5 and I've had marked improvement. Anything that makes it harder to maintain PO4 of 0.1 or greater is a detriment IMO.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thank you for the response. In all sincerity-how do we know what is right? Are the things I am doing hurting? I have no idea. Response seems to be 30% success with Vibrant and/or H2O2 dosing. I am trying a limited shotgun approach ( if such a high thing is possible).

I am really trying to be patient but long for the days on my past aquariums started with live rock where my wife and I could enjoy a clean aquarium with glass of wine and talk about the day. Now I look at my aquarium and resist the urge to try some nuclear option.

I know this thread is long but the research is there. I'll try to sum it up. When conditions arent right, dinos go into cyst mode. This cyst will create protection until conditions are fair. This gets disguised as "winning the battle". At that point you go back to your normal routine, you add your chaeto, feed your fish, add more coral and BAM! dinos are back. Between vibrant and H2o2, i suspect you'll be adding twice as much nutrients as you would need resulting in testing 2 or three times a day. Also, ostreopsis may be epiphytic similar to other dinos. This means, any dino cyst/cells that settles on the rim or on anything else that touches the tank water, will stay alive. All it needs is humidity in the air to survive.

The goal here isn't to eliminate dinos(next to impossible) but to create an environment where it can't live. Where the tank has beneficial competitors to keep numbers low. Nutrients help build competitors, feed bacteria, keep things more stable. UV will help with any that hit the water column. Since dinos are so prevalent these days, I probably will never run another tank without UV.

 

[mcarroll]

It dont look like anythink I can find in the web I need to buy a better scope couse they are too small.

The size is suggestive of something like cyano anyway I think.....cyano samples I've pulled out of my tank to look at under the scope are also too small to see in any good detail – even under 1200x.

And wait and see is a good plan if it's not seeming to be aggressive.

 

[Bob Lauson]

I know this thread is long but the research is there. I'll try to sum it up. When conditions arent right, dinos go into cyst mode. This cyst will create protection until conditions are fair. This gets disguised as "winning the battle". At that point you go back to your normal routine, you add your chaeto, feed your fish, add more coral and BAM! dinos are back. Between vibrant and H2o2, i suspect you'll be adding twice as much nutrients as you would need resulting in testing 2 or three times a day. Also, ostreopsis may be epiphytic similar to other dinos. This means, any dino cyst/cells that settles on the rim or on anything else that touches the tank water, will stay alive. All it needs is humidity in the air to survive.

The goal here isn't to eliminate dinos(next to impossible) but to create an environment where it can't live. Where the tank has beneficial competitors to keep numbers low. Nutrients help build competitors, feed bacteria, keep things more stable. UV will help with any that hit the water column. Since dinos are so prevalent these days, I probably will never run another tank without UV.

Do you follow the manufacturers guideline for the size of uv sterilizer required?

 

[saltyhog]

Is there a good way to sample biofilm on the glass? My sand is almost free of dinos and I can hardly see any on the rocks. Over the last couple of days though, my glass gets covered in algae over night. I'd like to look at it under the microscope to see what it is but can't figure how to get a specimen since I can't siphon it off.

 

[mcarroll]

All it needs is humidity in the air to survive.

Some interesting info came out regarding dino's in air....can you believe that is something that got studied?

But it is.....in open-air aquaculture ponds (heavy aeration/potential for high winds) apparently it's possible for Amyloodinium dinoflagellates (velvet) to be "aerosolized" and "fly" about 10 ft before they desiccate. Aerosolization didn't happen at all under home-like conditions.

So yes a dino could live on the rim of the tank. But indications are that it would need a real drop of water vs just humidity to stay intact...so there would be a real time limit.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Do you follow the manufacturers guideline for the size of uv sterilizer required?

No. Most manufacturers don't make UV small enough or should I say, quality enough for a nano tank. Right now i'm using a 9w UV from petsmart on my 30 gallon. It's fine for now and easy to conceal in my all-in-one tank. My goal is to get a Coralife Turbo twist plumbed into my return lines. Unfortunately, im running into issues finding a straight inlet adapter for my tank. Once I find that i'll add the new UV.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Is there a good way to sample biofilm on the glass? My sand is almost free of dinos and I can hardly see any on the rocks. Over the last couple of days though, my glass gets covered in algae over night. I'd like to look at it under the microscope to see what it is but can't figure how to get a specimen since I can't siphon it off.

With all the pumps off you can use a credit card and a pipette or eye dropper to grab the sample.

 

[mcarroll]

@Bob Lauson have you already been able to read through these parts of the first post? You have the nutrient dosing part down it looks like, but this info might help with the rest of it.....why your current treatments probably aren't a good idea to continue. In a nutshell they prevent system stability. But don't let me stop you from reading!

• After you get started, What is the End Game?
  
  
• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.

• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

• The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
• Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
  
• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

BTW, how is your CUC? Did they take a hit or get wiped out? If so, don't forget to build them back up once it looks like dino's are on the retreat.

 

[reeferfoxx]

But indications are that it would need a real drop of water vs just humidity to stay intact...so there would be a real time limit.

If I do a google search for epiphytic dinoflagellate, all of the common toxic dinos found in our tanks are listed. Though, the extremity of humidity might be an exaggeration, or is it? We need to know for sure!

 

[Jolanta]

The size is suggestive of something like cyano anyway I think.....cyano samples I've pulled out of my tank to look at under the scope are also too small to see in any good detail – even under 1200x.

And wait and see is a good plan if it's not seeming to be aggressive.

It could be but they really dont seam to bother corals or grow on them, only in the rocks. My snails, copepodes are all good so I think they are not toxic, for now I will let it be Thanks for all your help guys!

 

[mcarroll]

It could be but they really dont seam to bother corals or grow on them, only in the rocks. My snails, copepodes are all good so I think they are not toxic, for now I will let it be Thanks for all your help guys!

I agree! This may not be perfection, but it is good news!

 

[Paullawr]

Bottomed out PO4 may lead to dinos. It is recommended on here to keep it at 0.1 ppm minimum. You don't want to be one of us...



The bottles have instructions for how much to dose based on tank size at your target nutrient levels. Go by the tank volume size not the water amount when you start. It won't hurt to over dose in the beginning. Once a day should be enough but test every day to get a feel for your tanks consumption rate. It will most likely require more and more PO4 everyday if it reads 0 on your tests. Keep increasing your dose until it registers the next day at 0.1 ppm. Then hold that dosage amount to maintain the minimum. I had to test my PO4 and NO3 daily for a month as the levels keep changing.



If you can see a huge difference in the amount of dinos a few hours after lights out, then UV should help if the UV and its pump are sized correctly. Otherwise it will do nothing for you. UV is not supposed to do anything for large cell amphidinium but misidentification does happen, trust what is happening at night in your tank on this one to decide if UV will be effective.



You did use red cyano RX but you do run UV as well. It does look like cyano, so maybe the medication stopped being effective do to GAC or your UV? The water change could have reduced its potency as well. Plus, sometimes it just comes back. Not unheard of with medications.

@waterbourne you can have both strains of dinoflagellates. Many people have more than one strain of nasties.
I attribute this to being one of the reasons people find treatments unnafective for them. Whilst others the same treatment works.
That treatment may work on one but not the other.

Basically ostreopis will rotate on the spot.
Amphidinium will glide forwards potentially in snake like movements or making sharpe turns.

If you have a mixture of moments then it could be more than one strain.

As Bret rightly says there can be misidentifcation as well. So need to understand your tank habits.

Whilst trying to decide don't delay with dosing treatments as that is the only sure fire way of getting it under control.

I use virtually no removal products now on my tank outside of a small pad of phosphate and nitrate removing sponge (which aren't massively effective) and use prodibio once every two months during a good tank clean.

The only reason I use those is I don't have a fuge and four fish in a 10g would soon elevate those levels.