Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

I estimated these to be around 10 micron based on comparisons to small cell amphidinium. The ones your mention must be very tiny.

Yes. It's difficult for me to describe the size. I don't need glasses yet and it took me adjusting my eyes just to see them at 1200x(toy magnification).

 

[J Rog]

peroxide? ew. no.
skimmer makes "it" worse? the dino outbreak? the nutrients? Skimmer can be run just fine vs dinos. see below for the question on the time frame.



If I were to sketch out a generalized sequence for dino outbreak-treatment process with the methods in this thread it would look something like this.

Start

1. Dino Outbreak and Nutrient Starvation - Low P & N
2. Dosing PO4 (&NO3) - Tank stays depleted in P (maybe N too) while it biologically processes out the P debt or C excess (depending on how you look at it) caused by dinos.
3. Tank finally shows and holds modest levels of PO4 (& NO3) but green algae hasn't started to grow, while dinos are still increasing. Direct dino cell removal/killing still required. Going from #2 to #3 can take a a few days up to a couple of weeks.
4. Tank holding modest levels of PO4 and NO3, green algae is finally growing, dinos also growing. Direct dino cell removal/killing still required. From #3 to #4 can take another 2 weeks - if much longer without green growth, then we need to dig deeper on tank nutrient issues.
5. Green Algae growing, Dinos slowing/receding/not bouncing back. Direct dino cell killing/removal can be scaled back slowly as they disappear. Victory is at hand. Plan for how you can handle your healthy green algae with herbivores and not P (& N) starvation. From #4 to #5 is uncertain time frame - maybe a week to a month from onset of green growth to the slowdown of dino growth.
6. Close observation shows microfauna increase, P (&N) consumption rates return to sanity, and daily dosing no longer required - food inputs can mostly handle the job. Maybe once a week dose to keep balance. #6 may happen simultaneous with #5 but its usually the last reported stages of dino. It means dino influence on tank is entirely gone.

@revhtree where would you say you are on this timeline?

@J Rog my dismissal of peroxide, is because it'll never allow for green to replace the brown, which is a key to what's going on here.

sidenote: I was reading through some old dino threads and came across a discussion from 2011 - with everyone talking about H2O2, Ozone and blackouts. And I realized it could have been every single dino thread at any time in the last 10 years.
"I'm trying this. I'm gonna switch and go with the other. It worked for me. It didn't work for me. What dosage? You gotta do them together like this..." etc etc. and we chase our tails for a friggin decade.

I stopped dosing the peroxide 2 days ago or so. I didn’t see any bad effects as a result of the peroxide but once I saw it wasn’t helping much anymore I stopped. It seemed to be keeping them under control for a short period though. I did a couple of things yesterday though. I broke the number 1 rule and did a water change. But I vacuumed the sand bed. I also installed a cheap UV I picked up at petco out of desperation. I got the “Green Killing Machine” 24 watt. By this time during the day I would have the snot strings all over the place and at this point there is no snot strings. I think this is a great improvement for being installed for 26 hours so far. But I do hate the thing because the pump puts out a ton of micro bubbles. I emailed the company about it and they said it’s normal until the pump is primed. I guess we will see.. But seems to be helping. I will update in a couple of days. I will still continue to dose N03 and P04. Oh, about the skimmer question. Yes it seemed to make the Dino’s worse.. I wouldn’t use it for a couple of days and the Dino’s were somewhat tamed. Turned it on and the next day and they seemed to be much more noticeable. Maybe it has to do with the added oxygen?? I have no clue.. I am running now though..

 

[reeferfoxx]

I broke the number 1 rule and did a water change. But I vacuumed the sand bed. I also installed a cheap UV I picked up at petco out of desperation. I got the “Green Killing Machine” 24 watt. By this time during the day I would have the snot strings all over the place and at this point there is no snot strings. I think this is a great improvement for being installed for 26 hours so far.

The water change is okay as long as the source water is good too. Doing all this and then the UV will put a pause in regrowth but it's always best to get an assessment after 4 or more days. At least thats how it was in my experience.

 

[saltyhog]

I wanted to revisit this in light of the coral deaths, because I wonder if it's something that's happening more than once, and might be preventable.



I'm interested in the montipora deaths because they are pretty bomb-proof and the monti caps, digis, and spongodes are the only representatives of the sps community that I haven't managed to kill at one time or another.

In addition to toxic dinos setting up camp on the corals themselves - which is bad enough - that alone has cost many reefers their colonies.
I'm wondering here if going from a low nutrient system, and dosing nitrates without accompanying P...

..,then continuing dosing N while P remained fluctuating around zero (and Alk got high too) led to this situation.

basically, corals can decently handle "feast" (high N&P) or "famine" (low N&P), and they can even handle high P and low N, but they aren't well equipped to handle High NO3 while starved of P.

Compelling illustrations here too.

Same guys did follow-up along the same lines. Only more blunt this time.




No explanation needed on that one. Just more pics to hammer home the point.

It looks like when it comes to coral health, there's very good reason to exercise caution in raising NO3 in a tank where PO4 starvation remains in place.

This is very interesting to me since early on monti's were the only coral negative impacted by my dinos. At the time I had started dosing nitrates but my phosphate was still near zero.

I can see progress. Nitrates 5, phosphate 0.11. Most of my corals are much improved, SPS coloring up nicely. These pictures are 36 hours after siphoning the sand bed. No dinos visible on the rock, light dusting on the sand.

 

[taricha]

peroxide ...seemed to be keeping them under control for a short period though.

I broke the number 1 rule and did a water change. But I vacuumed the sand bed. I also installed a cheap UV I picked up at petco out of desperation. I got the “Green Killing Machine” 24 watt. By this time during the day I would have the snot strings all over the place and at this point there is no snot strings. I think this is a great improvement for being installed for 26 hours so far. But I do hate the thing because the pump puts out a ton of micro bubbles. I emailed the company about it and they said it’s normal until the pump is primed. I guess we will see.. But seems to be helping. I will update in a couple of days. I will still continue to dose N03 and P04. Oh, about the skimmer question. Yes it seemed to make the Dino’s worse.. I wouldn’t use it for a couple of days and the Dino’s were somewhat tamed. Turned it on and the next day and they seemed to be much more noticeable. Maybe it has to do with the added oxygen?? I have no clue.. I am running now though..

Oh, don't get me wrong. peroxide oxidizes things, sometimes including dinos. It just hits everything else too, and keeps your tank from being able to move on and get healthy and balanced.

No water changes is not a rule in my book. sometimes water changes are what the system needs. Personally I did water changes while fighting dinos.
like she said...

The water change is okay as long as the source water is good too. Doing all this and then the UV will put a pause in regrowth but it's always best to get an assessment after 4 or more days. At least thats how it was in my experience.

I've used the green killing machine 9W and 24W versions. The microbubbles are because there is air trapped in the pump or bulb assembly. Not a manufacturing flaw. Rotate them while on and submerged, and you'll get the bubbles out. Sounds like you are going the right direction.

If stopping skimming helps, then feel free to skim less. I did both skimmer or not. No big difference, but I feel like there are so many potential organics produced by dinos that it's likely better for the system to be skimmed.

 

[Bebow]

What’s the most cost effective microscope for identifying dinos?

I picked up a Swift m3200 used on EBay for around $30, was 10 or so years ago so don’t remember exactly. It’s does a good job. I was breeding Discus then so a scope is almost mandatory. https://www.ebay.com/itm/SWIFT-M3200-SERIES-SINGLE-EYEPIECE-MICROSCOPE-w-COVER-/253138264336

 

[saltyhog]

Is the recommendation against water changes due to it lowering nutrients? The reason I ask is the most effective way for manual removal for me is to vacuum the sand bed and simply replace that water.

I also seemed to remember someone saying that organic nitrate and phosphate were what dinos used and that's why over feeding some times worsens them. If I replace the nitrate and phosphate via dosing is it ok to do water changes?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Is the recommendation against water changes due to it lowering nutrients? The reason I ask is the most effective way for manual removal for me is to vacuum the sand bed and simply replace that water.

I also seemed to remember someone saying that organic nitrate and phosphate were what dinos used and that's why over feeding some times worsens them. If I replace the nitrate and phosphate via dosing is it ok to do water changes?

It's not a definitive statement for or against water changes. Not doing a water change on my nano helped me but that isn't to say it would have negative impact on someone else. With that, I added an extra carbon block to my ro/di in the off chance chloramines were giving me issues when doing water changes(source water). In a nano, things happen so much faster. So it's almost like brain surgery. If i do too much, might cause issues. If I do too little, might cause issues. If I don't do something correctly, might cause issues lol... With dinos it's similar in that, if we slip on nutrients, they jump in. If we slip on water quality, they jump in.

I think if your tank has a water change schedule, do the water change. If 15% results in more dino, cut back to 10% or 5%. Then look at the frequency. For me, weekly 15% was too much. I went down to 5% week changes and that was a positive change. Now i'm at bi-weekly 5% water changes just because cyano has been a thorn in my side. Finding this tanks sweet spot has been a challenge but i'm getting there. Now i'm just rambling. sorry.

 

[saltyhog]

Now i'm just rambling. sorry.

Not at all! That makes perfect sense. The chances of throwing things out of balance are a lot easier to do in my 10 gallon pico than my 160 gallon main tank. I've been so guilty of chasing numbers that I'm going to have to learn how to better assess the tank visually.

My rock flower nemes seem to be a good measure as they were the first corals after the monti's to get "mad" and the last to get happy again.

 

[RedneckReefer68]

@saltyhog get you a couple low micron filter socks and siphon into them then put water back in tank without doing water changes. My sump holds the sock and I just run my hose down to it and start siphoning. I turn off all flow in tank. I noticed that when I do, the dinos will float off of what ever they are covering and go into the water column. Very easy to get then that way.

 

[RedneckReefer68]

My p04 is staying above .1 and I'm getting crazy algea on my plugs and my snails look like they are wearing wigs. Should I hook my ats back up?

 

[JonJ]

My p04 is staying above .1 and I'm getting crazy algea on my plugs and my snails look like they are wearing wigs. Should I hook my ats back up?

I’m leaving my refugium off. My tank never had a nutrient problem to begin with and adding a refugium with chaeto is what stripped me down to danger low levels of nitrate and phosphate, allowing dinos to take hold. I’m noticing more green algae on rocks and on the glass every few days but I increased the clean up crew and all is well. I’m seeing how important it is to balance cleanup crew with nutrient import and export. More of anything is not always better.

Just my opinion.

 

[RedneckReefer68]

What's funny is my dinos didn't show up till I got high p04 after I added some cured figi rock that was in a dark bin at lfs. While I was ulns no problems [emoji23]

 

[saltyhog]

@saltyhog get you a couple low micron filter socks and siphon into them then put water back in tank without doing water changes. My sump holds the sock and I just run my hose down to it and start siphoning. I turn off all flow in tank. I noticed that when I do, the dinos will float off of what ever they are covering and go into the water column. Very easy to get then that way.

How fast does the water go through the low micron socks? I was just afraid it would take forever to siphon my 72x24 tank with one of those?

 

[RedneckReefer68]

How fast does the water go through the low micron socks? I was just afraid it would take forever to siphon my 72x24 tank with one of those?

I use airline on a 36" tank and it takes me about 30-45 minutes. With a bigger hose you could probably cut that time in half. I try to siphon as little water as possible though.

 

[saltyhog]

I use airline on a 36" tank and it takes me about 30-45 minutes. With a bigger hose you could probably cut that time in half. I try to siphon as little water as possible though.

Yeah, I'm using a 3/4" tubing with a sand vacuum attachment. I don't think it could handle the flow I'm sending.

 

[johnsamm7]

A quick question what is a good option to use for dosing nitrate I know people use spectracide stump remover is there any other options to use that people had success with thank you

 

[reeferfoxx]

Sodium Nitrate is good.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

How fast does the water go through the low micron socks? I was just afraid it would take forever to siphon my 72x24 tank with one of those?

Yeah, I'm using a 3/4" tubing with a sand vacuum attachment. I don't think it could handle the flow I'm sending.

I am siphoning with that size hose and the 5 micron socks do not flow enough to keep up with it. A 10 micron sock will but my dinos seem to mostly go through it. I let the siphoned water sit for about 30 minutes then slowly poor the bucket of water back into the tank. The dinos collect on the bottom of the bucket so I toss out the last bit of water with them. I have been thinking of using my air pump as a siphon to get the dinos out and have the outlet line go into my 5 micron sock, but I am not sure how long it would take. I will try next week and see how that technique works.

A quick question what is a good option to use for dosing nitrate I know people use spectracide stump remover is there any other options to use that people had success with thank you

I believe SeaChem also has a NO3 product. If you use the Spectracide, then keep in mind it is pure KNO3. So it is very potent and a little goes a long, long way. Half a teaspoon in my 29 gal DT with 10 gal fuge bumped it from 0 to 32 ppm.

I read in an earlier post on here that someone was interested in a way to count the cell density. There is a program call ImageJ that can do this very easily. Look up ImageJ cell count and watch some YouTube videos on it. I use it at work for area calculations and it is really handy.

I also read a few people asking about pump sizing for the Jebao UV sterilizers. So anyone with a Jebao UV sterilizer that wants a pump recommendation, I interpolated some flow rates based off of the chart found in the SmartUV manual. Looking at a few peoples setups it looks like you could target your flow on the low side for protist (like Velcro did) or on the high side for algae and bacteria (like Jolanta did) and still have it be effective against dinos so long as it is big enough for your tank. I checked to make sure the relationship between power and flow were linear and they are. There dose seem to be a tendency for higher powered units to handle proportionally larger tanks according to SmartUV's recommendations. But their gallons per watts recommendation appears to be on the lower end of what people here have seen to be effective against dinos.

These are estimates but appear to be effective based on the limited experience I have read about from others on this forum. It would be better to bias on the lower flow side because slower flows give more UV exposure time while maintaining appropriate turn over rates. Plus lower flow pumps are generally cheaper.

Jebao 36W - to target protist - 845-120 gph. To target algae - 500-840 gph.

Jebao 55W - to target profits - 135-225 gph.
To target algae - 810-1350 gph.

Basically the UV sterilizer should have about 0.5 W per gallon of the display tank or more. The pump should flow anywhere from 0.6-1.2 times the display tank size per hour for protist and 6-12 times the display tank volume per hour for algae. It should draw water from the display.

 

[johnsamm7]

Thank you for the info