Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Paullawr]

Ah that does make sense. So when NO3/PO4 is high enough, algae will win over dinos because it uses other resources other than N and P.

What are the other resources?

I think @taricha is saying the other resources are competitors ie other organisms.

 

[kinetic]

I think @taricha is saying the other resources are competitors ie other organisms.

Hmm, I guess I'm still not understanding then. It seems like dinos are growing even more now that I have NO3/PO4 dosed pretty high. I am definitely getting more green algae growth. What actually changes that makes dinos stop growing with algae present?

In my head I assumed that algae would outcompete for some resource that the dinos need. If that's just NO3/PO4, then keeping those levels high enough where algae can't consume it wouldn't work, since there's still extra N and P to be used. The only other thing that can happen is that algae could use up ALL the NO3/PO4 before dinos could, which means I would first need to grow algae, and then maintain that growth with just enough N and P so that algae grows but no other N and P is left over. That seems really difficult, but might be the only way?

 

[johnsamm7]

Hmm I have a lot to do I restarted because of this and noe I got it again some luck took my time with Every thing and it still happens in the meantime of me figuring out what strain it is what would u suggest I do to keep things in check

 

[Paullawr]

Hmm, I guess I'm still not understanding then. It seems like dinos are growing even more now that I have NO3/PO4 dosed pretty high. I am definitely getting more green algae growth. What actually changes that makes dinos stop growing with algae present?

In my head I assumed that algae would outcompete for some resource that the dinos need. If that's just NO3/PO4, then keeping those levels high enough where algae can't consume it wouldn't work, since there's still extra N and P to be used. The only other thing that can happen is that algae could use up ALL the NO3/PO4 before dinos could, which means I would first need to grow algae, and then maintain that growth with just enough N and P so that algae grows but no other N and P is left over. That seems really difficult, but might be the only way?

I'm not sold on the outcompete idea. I think it has a calming effect on them. When nutrients are low it'd like starvation mode kicks in a s they go wild reproducing in hope of some cells surviving. That's my guess. Which incidentally is just the same as everyone else's.

 

[Cscultho]

I saw a few bits and pieces pop up here and there but never saw any take hold, that being said, I have a kole tang, magnificent foxface, 2 variegated urchins, snails, etc. I think I would have more hair algae if it weren't for those guys.

What about you? How's your herbivorous community?

I have in my 55g DT about 20 snails and a small yellow tang and a lawnmower bleeny. The tang and bleeny were recently added (3 weeks ago). My big dino outbreak and P&N dosing was in July. During those months not hair algae but maybe the snails kept it at bay?

 

[johnsamm7]

I also have a watchman goby in the tank idk how he would do without sand

 

[Lowefx]

So my po4 is .34 and no3 is 16. I have no visible red or green algae, but dinos still cover sand bed. What should I try next?
I'd like to start no3pox4 to lower nitrate and phosphate. I am still using zeolites, zeostart, and zeobak

 

[Paullawr]

I also have a watchman goby in the tank idk how he would do without sand

Then advice is to maintain nutrients and syphon sand affected out (give it an inch all sides) then replace that but of sand with new or rinsed old sand.

 

[johnsamm7]

Gotcha just ordered the microscope should be here on the 8th to identify thank you for the help I will prob be asking a lot of questions as this horrible journey begins so frustrating

 

[RedneckReefer68]

Mine are back today after not seeing any yesterday and a very few the day before. I came home and they was on my rocks (BB tank) and some Coral and plugs [emoji35]

 

[Jolanta]

Still dino free here you cant imagine how happy I am, some green film starting to grow on my glass

Before it was only brown
My zoas look happy and open again

Now I will take care of valonia with some esmerald crabs and some strange green stick like algae. I always see those sticks when I have ostreopsis and on them the strings will grow but now there are only stick left

 

[taricha]

Ah that does make sense. So when NO3/PO4 is high enough, algae will win over dinos because it uses other resources other than N and P.

What are the other resources?

Basically, yes.
It's not about a sky high P and N, but about consistently available amounts. If everything has enough P and N, then everything will grow - for a while. Then something else will become a limiting resource.
Iron and B12 are strong candidates, but could be any number of other necessary trace elements or vitamins that get depleted. Not the sort of thing we can pin down precisely with a hobbyist test kit.
But we know that in systems with consistent available P and N and a green algae presence, dinos tend to be inconsequential.

And we know that in a game of P and N starve-out, dinos win and our tanks lose.

 

[Paullawr]

Mine are back today after not seeing any yesterday and a very few the day before. I came home and they was on my rocks (BB tank) and some Coral and plugs [emoji35]

Yep they rebound that's what they do. New germinated cysts most likely. Keep at it.

 

[johnsamm7]

So what phosphate and nitrate products would you recommend for dossing when I get to that point

 

[johnsamm7]

And if I do remove the sand do I do it all at once or little by little

 

[Pmj]

Two questions for those of you that have battled dinos & won, and nutrients definitely worked for me:

I'm still having to dose P about every other day to keep it from bottoming out, and this is without many visible dinos. Did you all stop natural filtration as well for a while (chaeto, ats, etc.)? I'm thinking of at least lowering the lighting period on my chaeto. I feed 3x a day minimum (2x flakes in auto feeder & NLS or frozen in the evening). Other issue with this is I've had persistent cyano stemming from it, but cyano is a heck of a lot better than dinos so I've dealt with it. Would be nice to get to a happy medium again.

What do I do with corals hurt by it? Some are really messed up. Options are frag them all to many pieces or just let it try to grow into it's bald spots (which hasn't seemed to work b/c it's a magnet for other algae or lingering dinos).

 

[Lowefx]

So my po4 is .34 and no3 is 16. I have no visible red or green algae, but dinos still cover sand bed. What should I try next?
I'd like to start no3pox4 to lower nitrate and phosphate. I am still using zeolites, zeostart, and zeobak

Anyone?

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Maintain NO3 and PO4 levels Lowefx. They will reduce in numbers over time. You could run a UV and stir up the sand to get them in the water. You would only need to run the UV for a few minutes while stirring the sand and a few minutes after while they are still floating. But maintaining nutrients will work. You could also dose silicate to get a diatom bloom which from what I have read will help get rid of dinos. I have ordered some silicate myself and will be attempting it.

If anyone's livestock is experiencing ill effects, then don't forget to run GAC. Been reading that a lot lately.

Funny thing about GHA, it was growing uncontrollably in my tank even with an overdose of PhosGuard and no detectable NO3 or PO4. Still got dinos. Still have GHA but it recently slowed in growth rate. Starting to see RHA too. PO4 is maxing out the Hanna ULR and NO3 are between 8-12 ppm consistently. The dinos were subsiding until a week ago when there was a big increase in their numbers. Cleaned out twice as much as I normally do on the weekends. Film algae also stopped growing. After last weekend's dino clean out they haven't really come back much. New record low since I started dosing nutrients. It's been about a month.

I think I now have another limiting compound in my system but I'm not sure what it is. From everything I have read I am leaning towards Fe or an amino. Does Fe get stored in live rock? That would explain my previous rampant GHA growth.

 

[saltyhog]

If everything has enough P and N, then everything will grow - for a while. Then something else will become a limiting resource.
Iron and B12 are strong candidates, but could be any number of other necessary trace elements or vitamins that get depleted. Not the sort of thing we can pin down precisely with a hobbyist test kit.
But we know that in systems with consistent available P and N and a green algae presence, dinos tend to be inconsequential.

And we know that in a game of P and N starve-out, dinos win and our tanks lose.

I think this is spot on. I think it's likely a trace element or compound that becomes limiting.

I'm continuing to see improvement. My corals are improving, my zoas are opening back up, there is virtually no dinos on the rock now, just a smattering on the sand. Despite the fact that there is no visible green algae in the DT. The sump...altogether different. Lots of hair algae in the overflow and chaeto is growing at an unbelievable rate. PO4 is running 0.09-0.14, nitrates are consistently 5. Not declaring victory yet but I'm definitely headed the right direction!

 

[kinetic]

I'm not sold on the outcompete idea. I think it has a calming effect on them. When nutrients are low it'd like starvation mode kicks in a s they go wild reproducing in hope of some cells surviving. That's my guess. Which incidentally is just the same as everyone else's.

Basically, yes.
It's not about a sky high P and N, but about consistently available amounts. If everything has enough P and N, then everything will grow - for a while. Then something else will become a limiting resource.
Iron and B12 are strong candidates, but could be any number of other necessary trace elements or vitamins that get depleted. Not the sort of thing we can pin down precisely with a hobbyist test kit.
But we know that in systems with consistent available P and N and a green algae presence, dinos tend to be inconsequential.

And we know that in a game of P and N starve-out, dinos win and our tanks lose.

I think this is spot on. I think it's likely a trace element or compound that becomes limiting.

I'm continuing to see improvement. My corals are improving, my zoas are opening back up, there is virtually no dinos on the rock now, just a smattering on the sand. Despite the fact that there is no visible green algae in the DT. The sump...altogether different. Lots of hair algae in the overflow and chaeto is growing at an unbelievable rate. PO4 is running 0.09-0.14, nitrates are consistently 5. Not declaring victory yet but I'm definitely headed the right direction!

Thanks all! It's all a guess as to why this works, with good strong theories. If the pattern is increasing NO3/PO4 works, then I'll keep at it. It's just hard when you don't see progress and only see it getting worse. I'm hoping it'll take a turn soon.