Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[reeferfoxx]

Is it strange that after dosing P & N to battle ostreopsis i have NEVER had a hair algae bloom? Only other algae i would get in my tank is green algae. Ive read so many other reefers growing hair but never in mine.

wonder why??

For me I got hair algae because my tank for almost a year and a half(at the time) never saw hair algae. I think the bacterial competitors never had a foot hold when it comes to hair algae. So for me it was a welcoming addition.

 

[Paullawr]

Yes Im really happy! Do you think it would be good to leave UV maybe a month and then only put it on in the night for some time and then fully shut it off and observe?

That my dear is a good question. I'm not sure anyone knows yet but yes try for a month, go for a couple if weeks night only and then power off.

Now the only way to ensure the test isn't influenced by other factors is to ensure no corals, fish etc are added between now and a projected date in the future. Ideally 12 months from now.
I say this as they tend to be seasonal.

Failing to do this may give the impression they have come back but in reality are new ones introduced to the tank.

 

[Paullawr]

UV could be a long-lasting intervention (for the reasons of cyst formation and rebloom as mentioned by beardo), but it should not need to be permanent.
When we say dino cells form cysts, we're talking about small part of the population - single digit percent. So when they decide it's safe to emerge (based on conditions - nutrients, temp, not time) it's in much smaller numbers than the original. That rebloom shouldn't happen too many times. And more often, if the nutrients are kept available, there will really be negligible number of cells that will encyst in the first place.
UV is a great tool but all it does is reduce dino cell numbers (important!).
It does nothing to address the community ecosystem of the tank. So until other organisms establish themselves in the niche that dinos occupied, there is nothing preventing a relapse or outbreak by a different strain. That's why UV is not our primary focus.

I've run UV on big tanks and nano systems, as part of fighting dino outbreaks in each. Pulled UV offline for months without re-emergence. I've even dumped multiple doses of several live strains from an outbreak in one tank into my display (no UV) once the display was dino free and no dinos got a foothold in the display.
If you're uncomfortable with UV, you can run it intermittently - the first successful UV treatments were running only at night anyway because that's when dinos are most active in the water. As the outbreak subsides, you could scale down the UV time to every other day, only on weekends, etc.

Anyway, never letting the tank starve of P (and N) again is a permanent intervention - UV need not be.

So question then.

Would it be safe to say we want to encourage a bloom whilst using UV. If we are controlling them with nutrients which of the two is likely to have them form cysts?

Cysts as I took it only formed if the conditions were terribly unfavourable to them?

 

[Jolanta]

That my dear is a good question. I'm not sure anyone knows yet but yes try for a month, go for a couple if weeks night only and then power off.

Now the only way to ensure the test isn't influenced by other factors is to ensure no corals, fish etc are added between now and a projected date in the future. Ideally 12 months from now.
I say this as they tend to be seasonal.

Failing to do this may give the impression they have come back but in reality are new ones introduced to the tank.

Ok I will make the test,maybe I will add some more corals I want now that UV is running and then I will pray they want come back

 

[Paullawr]

Ok I will make the test,maybe I will add some more corals I want now that UV is running and then I will pray they want come back

I think its the only way. What we need to do is find what their expected life cycle is and to ensure water parameters are favourable to them.

If they stay in cyst form for 24 months the test will be null and void.

 

[Jolanta]

I think its the only way. What we need to do is find what their expected life cycle is and to ensure water parameters are favourable to them.

If they stay in cyst form for 24 months the test will be null and void.

But why UV will make them form cyst? It takes a cell for surprise when enter UV and I think its demaged and cant encyst after UV or Im wrong? Medicate the tang will make them encyst couse they feel in danger but UV will do the same?

 

[Beardo]

Is it strange that after dosing P & N to battle ostreopsis i have NEVER had a hair algae bloom? Only other algae i would get in my tank is green algae. Ive read so many other reefers growing hair but never in mine.

wonder why??

I have been contemplating the same thing as my experience is similar to yours. I have just recently seen a little green algae on the rocks after many months of dosing. I imagine initially it is dinos outcompeting algae for nutrients but I wonder if there is also some sort of chemical inhibition that occurs as well that takes time to correct itself once the dino population decreases. Since it doesn't seem to be consistent across tanks, as some grow hair algae pretty quickly, perhaps it is just certain types of dinos and/or related to the length of bloom and severity of the bloom.
Just some random speculation here on my part.

 

[Beardo]

But why UV will make them form cyst? It takes a cell for surprise when enter UV and I think its demaged and cant encyst after UV or Im wrong? Medicate the tang will make them encyst couse they feel in danger but UV will do the same?

If I'm not mistaken, dinos can form both resting cysts and long term cysts as part of their reproduction cycle. Hopefully someone will correct me if i am wrong on this.
Not sure how UV itself would prompt dinos to encyst unless dinos are capable of sending chemical signals when they are dying that would signal others of danger.

 

[taricha]

So question then.

Would it be safe to say we want to encourage a bloom whilst using UV. If we are controlling them with nutrients which of the two is likely to have them form cysts?

Cysts as I took it only formed if the conditions were terribly unfavourable to them?

This has been my thought on it as well. If I have an active dino water column treatment (UV/micron filter etc) then I want dinos in the water. So keep the temp up, keep the nutrients available, don't stress anything with medications, ammonia (like 1ppm causes cysts), ph, metro, bleach, h202 whatever. Nothing that would encourage cyst formation.

Some small amount will form cysts anyway, but really that's only <1% in my experience. If you start stressing the system, then you can get more cysts - like 5 or 10%.

But why UV will make them form cyst? It takes a cell for surprise when enter UV and I think its demaged and cant encyst after UV or Im wrong? Medicate the tang will make them encyst couse they feel in danger but UV will do the same?

Maybe a few are partially damaged and encyst, but mostly I think they are happy until they get irradiated by UV and die. Haven't seen evidence on cyst formation after UV damage.

I have been contemplating the same thing as my experience is similar to yours. I have just recently seen a little green algae on the rocks after many months of dosing. I imagine initially it is dinos outcompeting algae for nutrients but I wonder if there is also some sort of chemical inhibition that occurs as well that takes time to correct itself once the dino population decreases. Since it doesn't seem to be consistent across tanks, as some grow hair algae pretty quickly, perhaps it is just certain types of dinos and/or related to the length of bloom and severity of the bloom.
Just some random speculation here on my part.

Other than cases like mentioned above when there are obvious grazers keeping GHA suppressed to near invisible - I agree. I don't know whether it's biotoxins from dinos, or if it's just scarce resources. Either way, it seems a variable we can't measure. That's why when someone says they have kept their P & N up but no green algae growth, I would recommend water changes. In my mind that's for the limited resources, but it might help with the other too.

 

[zachxlutz]

Other than cases like mentioned above when there are obvious grazers keeping GHA suppressed to near invisible - I agree. I don't know whether it's biotoxins from dinos, or if it's just scarce resources. Either way, it seems a variable we can't measure. That's why when someone says they have kept their P & N up but no green algae growth, I would recommend water changes. In my mind that's for the limited resources, but it might help with the other too.

Ahhh... could be an iron deficiency causing the lack of GHA growth.

 

[johnsamm7]

Would thisbappear to be dino there are some strans that have bubbles attached and bubbles also on my love rock as well after vacuuming they also reappear

 

[kinetic]

I'm surprised nobody answered this. I'll say yes. Its frustrating but getting worse before better is a common occurrence. Keep maintaining nutrients. Eventually, green algae will thrive. If dinos aren't visible let the tank restabilize without nutrient additions. If dinos return, ID them. Could be different dinos. I experienced this and going a month without water changes or dosing the big 3 helped. It starved out the hair algae and the new dino bailed out. Dont try to add anything to help clear up any algae growth.

Thanks @reeferfoxx

The dinos are still growing strong. I try to do a bit of manual removal every other day, but they grow back with a vengeance the next. Green algae is growing on the glass. Chaeto should be here tomorrow and I'll add that to a chaeto reactor.

I'm confused as to how dinos will be outcompeted by the green algae. If I keep adding NO3/PO4, wouldn't that fuel both the algae and dinos, especially if there's always some NO3/PO4 available?

Is the idea that the algae will consume it quicker throughout the day? And do I need to dose NO3/PO4 just enough so it is almost zero all day with the algae consuming it rather than dinos? And how can it be so selective?

 

[Paullawr]

But why UV will make them form cyst? It takes a cell for surprise when enter UV and I think its demaged and cant encyst after UV or Im wrong? Medicate the tang will make them encyst couse they feel in danger but UV will do the same?

Sorry i didn't explain very well.

I don't mean the UV causing cysts. What we need to discourage are cysts remaining dormant due to imperfect water conditions. Then when water conditions are OK cysts turn back in to cells and we think UV hasn't worked. It has but it was a water issue preventing all cells from staying in water column.

 

[Paullawr]

Would thisbappear to be dino there are some strans that have bubbles attached and bubbles also on my love rock as well after vacuuming they also reappear

Yep 101%

I can smell them from here.

Seriously I've become that trained at spotting then I can find them from 6 metres away.

Mind I bet most in here could now.

 

[johnsamm7]

So sick of this already Shut down my previous tank because of them anyone recommend a good uv for. A innovative marine 25 lagoon no sump and I guess from the precious posts which I only made to page 52 so far is to dose nitrate 5-10 and phosphate .10 and run them constantly at that level anything I missed so far as in methods working thanks for the help my tank is not even a year yet

 

[Paullawr]

So sick of this already Shut down my previous tank because of them anyone recommend a good uv for. A innovative marine 25 lagoon no sump and I guess from the precious posts which I only made to page 52 so far is to dose nitrate 5-10 and phosphate .10 and run them constantly at that level anything I missed so far as in methods working thanks for the help my tank is not even a year yet

Looks like amphidinium to me in which case UV will be ineffective. Need scope to confirm but that's my educated guess.

 

[johnsamm7]

What Would You Suggest

 

[taricha]

I'm confused as to how dinos will be outcompeted by the green algae. If I keep adding NO3/PO4, wouldn't that fuel both the algae and dinos, especially if there's always some NO3/PO4 available?

Dinos do well enough to dominate our tanks when we limit the P and N, so we change the game. Make P and N readily available grow algae, and eventually force competition for other resources. Algae does much better and dinos much worse under those conditions.
There are other important details, but that's the biggest part of the story.

 

[kinetic]

Dinos do well enough to dominate our tanks when we limit the P and N, so we change the game. Make P and N readily available grow algae, and eventually force competition for other resources. Algae does much better and dinos much worse under those conditions.
There are other important details, but that's the biggest part of the story.

Ah that does make sense. So when NO3/PO4 is high enough, algae will win over dinos because it uses other resources other than N and P.

What are the other resources?

 

[Paullawr]

What Would You Suggest

Well first is positive ID, get a microscope. Doesn't have to be medical grade. Just looking for something with say 1200 magnification. It will serve you well in future as you cannot be in the saltwater game now without these.

I'll happily go on record and say every LFS had them so do importers.

I'm Nudibranch, aiptasia, bryopsis, red bugs, flatworms... They are rare in comparison.

ID is important. Not half the battle, hell not even an eighth but if you know the strain(s) you are dealing with then you can see progress with fresh samples.

For example if you have ostreopis and amphidinium and running UV you may think the UV is ineffective.

Its not. Its got the ostreopsis but not amphidinium.

It is the reason why there are so many reports of one thing working for one person and not the other. It's a different strain and they behave completely different.

With that said if it is amphidinium you need to still raise the nutrients. This is a base line get in control method the works for all of them.

Then you have choices to make. If it's me, ditch the sand. Its part of their life cycle. They encyst in sand.

You can run fresh water through it and reintroduce by as I'm sure @mcarroll would say. It's just sand. Get rid of it.

You could still install an online UV if you wished. May help when blasting glass bottom tank and rocks periodically.