Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[saltyhog]

Same thing that happens in the medical industry, awareness. Once people are aware of the issue, then diagnoses skyrocket. The aquarium industry will eventually get on board and react, then diagnoses will begin to drop and it will become common knowledge to not bottom out your nutrients.

Very true. Our state usually leads the country in the number of diagnosed cases of TB. I don't think we have any more TB than other states but a lot of the research in to diagnosing and treating was done here so we are more aware of it and look for it more often.

Looking back I've had a few very minor flares of dinos through the years but it didn't really get bad till I let my nutrients get to zero (after treating with Vibrant and GFO to battle a hair algae outbreak that would have probably gone away on it's own).

 

[taricha]

Well heres the update:

...I'm considering going ahead with the first water change in over a month..... I'm left to conclude the DINO-X must be a pretty serious algaecide!. I know it is made of organo-ammonium compounds which act as surfactants but it clearly is blunting any growth of algae and "somewhat" knocking back the Amphidinium species.

At this point with the corals looking a bit bad and the Dino's still lurking I think I am done with the DINO-X. I'm going to run some carbon in my sump along with some Polyfilter to get the water detoxified and help the corals. I'll keep siphoning them out until I have no sand left
Probably will go ahead with a water change as well. Will keep my nutrients up and hope to see more algae return that hopefully will eventually outcompete the dino's.

Either you are correct about dino-x suppressing algae growth, or the long lack of water changes has created a trace element/nutrient limitation that is both slowing dino growth and keeping tank from producing normal healthy algae.
Quite likely both are true!
Large Cell Amphidinium is the one strain that I'd say in most cases more damage is done to the system by hobbyists trying to "cure" than by the dino itself.
I like your plan forward at this point. You seem to have a good feel for where your system is.
That's the silver lining in dinos, I think. After beating dinos, you'll understand the biology of your system at a level you never did before.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm seeing more and more new threads on a weekly basis with brown sand issues and what appear to be Dino's. Is it me or are we truly reaching plague proportions?? What the ...is going on??

To me, when it comes to "low nutrients" it seems like a case of "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."

I have a 4-year-old so I get to read a lot of Shel Silverstein. Sometimes a poem that we read together really resonates with me like this one from his book Everything On It:

The Yesees said yes to anything
That anyone suggested.
The Noees said no to everything
Unless it was proven and tested.
So the Yesees all died of much too much
And the Noees all died of fright,
But somehow I think the Thinkforyourselfees
All came out all right.​

Maybe that's relevant or maybe not, but I really like the poem either way.

It seems like everyone who is starting threads like the ones you mentioned has gotten the idea that they want and should attain "low or zero nutrients."

The problem is that I don't think anyone in that situation knows what that really means. Who does?

There's apparently no useful definition (i.e. with context) in there with the information that they're using about what "low" or "ultra low" really is.

There's obviously no precedent for these folks to follow of healthy reef tanks being set up with dead rock and no nutrients. Nobody seems to be aware of the potentially negative side-effects.

(I mean the last time people bleached live rock for saltwater tanks was mostly in the 70's/80's and earlier. And they just called it a bleached coral skeleton. Tanks set up like that were rarely or never successful as reef tanks....only sometimes successful as fish tanks. ;Shy Virtually everyone who was doing that bleaching skeletons thing converted to FOWLR. Fish Only With Live Rock. ;Shy)

Still, when you start with bleached coral skeletons along with other "modern nutrient export methods" it all seems good at first. But the good times only seem to last until just after they meet with "success" in getting their nutrients "as low as possible". Then the "Help me ID this weird brown algae" posts begin.

So with no great precedent to follow and no firm goal to aim for, folks who start a tank with bleached coral skeletons and a strict nutrient reduction regiment really are beginning their journey in a very ambiguous direction and from a starting point that few (at best) have ever succeeded with.

That's not the beginning I'd choose as a newb – that's not how I started as a newb. There are plenty of books and other guidance out there on how to start a tank in what I guess is now "the old school way". But that guidance is apparently not in front of (enough of?) the folks starting new tanks these days.

What gets me is how to pre-empt this trend?

Whether online or in the retail setting (when I was in it) I don't think I've ever been able to speak to one of these folks in the planning phase before things have a chance to "go sideways". ;Muted

Seems like we're doing about the most good possible right here, but I'd love to hear ideas on how to reach out better, sooner to these folks!

 

[Paullawr]

I'm seeing more and more new threads on a weekly basis with brown sand issues and what appear to be Dino's. Is it me or are we truly reaching plague proportions?? What the ...is going on??

I've answered this earlier. Too many people I hobby swapping stuff whom know they have them or inexperienced a single don't k or they have them. Combined with searching for low phosphate levels.

 

[Paullawr]

To me, when it comes to "low nutrients" it seems like a case of "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."

I have a 4-year-old so I get to read a lot of Shel Silverstein. Sometimes a poem that we read together really resonates with me like this one from his book Everything On It:

The Yesees said yes to anything
That anyone suggested.
The Noees said no to everything
Unless it was proven and tested.
So the Yesees all died of much too much
And the Noees all died of fright,
But somehow I think the Thinkforyourselfees
All came out all right.​

Maybe that's relevant or maybe not, but I really like the poem either way.

It seems like everyone who is starting threads like the ones you mentioned has gotten the idea that they want and should attain "low or zero nutrients."

The problem is that I don't think anyone in that situation knows what that really means. Who does?

There's apparently no useful definition (i.e. with context) in there with the information that they're using about what "low" or "ultra low" really is.

There's obviously no precedent for these folks to follow of healthy reef tanks being set up with dead rock and no nutrients. Nobody seems to be aware of the potentially negative side-effects.

(I mean the last time people bleached live rock for saltwater tanks was mostly in the 70's/80's and earlier. And they just called it a bleached coral skeleton. Tanks set up like that were rarely or never successful as reef tanks....only sometimes successful as fish tanks. ;Shy Virtually everyone who was doing that bleaching skeletons thing converted to FOWLR. Fish Only With Live Rock. ;Shy)

Still, when you start with bleached coral skeletons along with other "modern nutrient export methods" it all seems good at first. But the good times only seem to last until just after they meet with "success" in getting their nutrients "as low as possible". Then the "Help me ID this weird brown algae" posts begin.

So with no great precedent to follow and no firm goal to aim for, folks who start a tank with bleached coral skeletons and a strict nutrient reduction regiment really are beginning their journey in a very ambiguous direction and from a starting point that few (at best) have ever succeeded with.

That's not the beginning I'd choose as a newb – that's not how I started as a newb. There are plenty of books and other guidance out there on how to start a tank in what I guess is now "the old school way". But that guidance is apparently not in front of (enough of?) the folks starting new tanks these days.

What gets me is how to pre-empt this trend?

Whether online or in the retail setting (when I was in it) I don't think I've ever been able to speak to one of these folks in the planning phase before things have a chance to "go sideways". ;Muted

Seems like we're doing about the most good possible right here, but I'd love to hear ideas on how to reach out better, sooner to these folks!

Well you converted me, that took some doing as I'm arrogant sod.

 

[Paullawr]

Same thing that happens in the medical industry, awareness. Once people are aware of the issue, then diagnoses skyrocket. The aquarium industry will eventually get on board and react, then diagnoses will begin to drop and it will become common knowledge to not bottom out your nutrients.

Nutrient reducers that maintain detectable levels will be next....

 

[O'l Salty]

Are these dinos and if so what kind?

 

[Beardo]

Are these dinos and if so what kind?

Looks like amphidinium to me. Is there movement?

 

[O'l Salty]

Looks like amphidinium to me. Is there movement?

Yup, those are the kind I have. Is there any preferred method of reducing them?

 

[O'l Salty]

Are Dino's something to be eradicated from the system or something that is managed?

I have an outbreak in my 40b right now but I'm pretty sure I had them in a 20gal tank about a year ago. In that tank they just went away on their own.

 

[Paullawr]

Are Dino's something to be eradicated from the system or something that is managed?

I have an outbreak in my 40b right now but I'm pretty sure I had them in a 20gal tank about a year ago. In that tank they just went away on their own.

Managed. They can be eradicated but usually at the cost of everything else.

 

[taricha]

Here are some videos of the dinos in my tank. ..

Large cell amphidinium for yours....

Update on my large cell amphidinium.

For about a week now the dinos have only been present during the day and the snot goes away at night.

Below is a picture of a section of my SB mid day.

Below is the same region around mid night when lights were off for 5 hours. I turned the lights back on for minute to get this shot.

No cleaning was performed. Clearly they are going into the water column. This made me think I have a new type of dino. So I took some scope pics and vids.

What do you all think? Still amphidinium or something else?

I no longer have faith in my original ID. There was never enough detail of the front end to be sure. sorry.
I'm 50/50 on whether it's amphidinium or prorocetrum.
the snotty blobs are not the most common amphidinium presentation. They are more typical of proros. Amphidinium are more dusty.
Amphidinium look lighter after darkness too, because they go down into the sand. Anyway. I think adding UV is worth a try. I'm still unsure on which one we're looking at.

 

[Beardo]

I believe those are Coolia.
For taking pictures with your cell phone, I would recommend a universal mount such as this https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06X...+universal&dpPl=1&dpID=41IqzDVQfwL&ref=plSrch to get better quality pictures and videos.

Thanks, I used a small tripod but I’ll get what you linked just for ease of use. So far I only get a light dusting on the sandbed only. I went 2 days with lights out and the tank looked perfect. Now while trying to raise nitrates (currently 1.5 ppm) and phosphates (.03 ppm), it has made it come back worse in my sump and it is smothering my chaeto. Considering taking out the sandbed and nuking the sump tomorrow (taking it offline and bleaching everything). The corals, snails and fish seem indifferent to this for now and it doesn’t look that bad. I’m just worried it’s going to start killing my corals.

I had some issues with dinos increasing a few weeks after starting dosing of phosphates as well. I still think it's the right way to go for long term control though. Your chaeto may be hurting your battle since it is taking up nutrients and may harbor dinos as they can be found on chaeto in nature.
Coolia was one of the dominant species in my tank. Adding a properly sized UV proved to be a big help for me in the battle. Just something to think about if you continue to struggle with them.
Losing coral is a real concern; I lost the majority of my coral from a combination of the dinos and some of the methods I used trying to combat them. Keeping nutrients up should help keep from starving the corals and using activated carbon helps with the toxins.
Good luck in your fight.

 

[Beardo]

Yup, those are the kind I have. Is there any preferred method of reducing them?

I'm hesitant to give advice as I'm still battling Amphidinium but have seen a pretty big reduction in numbers.
Maintaing nutrient levels; 5 - 10 ppm nitrates and 0.1 ppm phosphates along with physical removal (siphoning out during water changes or siphoning through a 5 or 10 micron filter sock) would be my recommendation. Not a quick fix but with patience it is working.
If you haven't already, take a look at the first post of this thread.

 

[O'l Salty]

I had some issues with dinos increasing a few weeks after starting dosing of phosphates as well. I still think it's the right way to go for long term control though. Your chaeto may be hurting your battle since it is taking up nutrients and may harbor dinos as they can be found on chaeto in nature.
Coolia was one of the dominant species in my tank. Adding a properly sized UV proved to be a big help for me in the battle. Just something to think about if you continue to struggle with them.
Losing coral is a real concern; I lost the majority of my coral from a combination of the dinos and some of the methods I used trying to combat them. Keeping nutrients up should help keep from starving the corals and using activated carbon helps with the toxins.
Good luck in your fight.

I started dosing phosphate about a month ago and accidentally overdosed to 7 ppm it's rapidly fallen to .1 ppm without any intervention. Some of my corals were damaged and about a week ago the Dino's started.

 

[Iamchadster]

Dino's on the run, but a quick check today had me with PO4 at 0.48 ppm. Yikes, I was kind of wondering why some of the SPS were browning up.

 

[Paullawr]

Dino's on the run, but a quick check today had me with PO4 at 0.48 ppm. Yikes, I was kind of wondering why some of the SPS were browning up.

Sps brown for many reasons, stress and change is likely the reason. Have you been doing anything else other than dosing.

 

[IKD]

Just a quick update for me. Dealing with Ostreopsis and Coolia; I started raising Nitrates/Phosphate about two weeks ago (levels at 6-10ppm Nitate; 0.8-.14 Phosphate). I added Chaeto, Caulerpa, MicroCater7 and some used miracle mud from my LFS. I saw a dino bloom at first, then it leveled off. But for a week or so, the dino's didn't get worse but nothing significantly improved either (probably just needed time for new competition to get a foothold). With advice/reading from @Paullawr, @taricha, @Jolanta, @Beardo, and others, I finally got my AquaUV 114w sterilizer installed on Thursday for my 265g. That seems to have really turned the corner with this battle with them. I have the pump draw directly from the display as a temp setup and blow the rocks with a turkey baster a few times a day. Looking over the battlefield, I've lost nearly all my monti's and about 75% of my SPS. The LPS corals have done well though. I guess the old monti's will be shelves for new corals to be placed on. I'm optimistic at this point and may do a 20% water change soon.

 

[Beardo]

Just a quick update for me. Dealing with Ostreopsis and Coolia; I started raising Nitrates/Phosphate about two weeks ago (levels at 6-10ppm Nitate; 0.8-.14 Phosphate). I added Chaeto, Caulerpa, MicroCater7 and some used miracle mud from my LFS. I saw a dino bloom at first, then it leveled off. But for a week or so, the dino's didn't get worse but nothing significantly improved either (probably just needed time for new competition to get a foothold). With advice/reading from @Paullawr, @taricha, @Jolanta, @Beardo, and others, I finally got my AquaUV 114w sterilizer installed on Thursday for my 265g. That seems to have really turned the corner with this battle with them. I have the pump draw directly from the display as a temp setup and blow the rocks with a turkey baster a few times a day. Looking over the battlefield, I've lost nearly all my monti's and about 75% of my SPS. The LPS corals have done well though. I guess the old monti's will be shelves for new corals to be placed on. I'm optimistic at this point and may do a 20% water change soon.

Sorry you lost so many of your corals but glad to hear you are turning the corner.

 

[taricha]

Thank you for the report @IKD
Sorry for coral losses. When did the corals suffer, could you put it in place in the time line of your outbreak, treatments etc?
Doesn't feel entirely like victory until we can keep livestock healthy through the process.