Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Bret Brinkmann]

Update on my large cell amphidinium.

For about a week now the dinos have only been present during the day and the snot goes away at night.

Below is a picture of a section of my SB mid day.

Below is the same region around mid night when lights were off for 5 hours. I turned the lights back on for minute to get this shot.

No cleaning was performed. Clearly they are going into the water column. This made me think I have a new type of dino. So I took some scope pics and vids.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What do you all think? Still amphidinium or something else?

...Dino's resort to bacterivory for phosphate also obviously meets their need for B vitamins too. (Bacteria generate B vitamins – one reason why yogurt is good for us!)...

Someone dose yogurt. Jk

It was spoiled yogurt, but it worked..... Who wants to try it in their tank first? j/k But seriously, there was NO movement in the sample I dosed.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Lowefx]

Update on my large cell amphidinium.

For about a week now the dinos have only been present during the day and the snot goes away at night.

Below is a picture of a section of my SB mid day.

Below is the same region around mid night when lights were off for 5 hours. I turned the lights back on for minute to get this shot.

No cleaning was performed. Clearly they are going into the water column. This made me think I have a new type of dino. So I took some scope pics and vids.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What do you all think? Still amphidinium or something else?





It was spoiled yogurt, but it worked..... Who wants to try it in their tank first? j/k But seriously, there was NO movement in the sample I dosed.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Asking for a friend.......if you were to dose yogurt, what I'll effects can it have on other aspects of you tank...skimmer.... cheato.....corals.....fish......uv.....? Lol

 

[wopadobop]

Man some of these videos have crazy active Dino’s. Ive never seen mine move like that before.

 

[Beardo]

So there’s a motility video

And there’s a shot at 600x

Any id help? Looks like ostreopsis to me. ?? I’m bad at this stuff

You do have Ostreopsis and looks like a second kind as well from the video.

 

[mcarroll]

Asking for a friend.......if you were to dose yogurt, what I'll effects can it have on other aspects of you tank...skimmer.... cheato.....corals.....fish......uv.....? Lol

I'm sure it'd be fine if used as a planktonic suspension feed, but not quite the right fatty acid mix to be a replacement food. Maybe OK as a supplement?

 

[Beardo]

@JonJ any chance of a video? Hard to say without movement.

Ok, hopefully this will work! I bought a better microscope do hopefully this will make it easier to determine.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/QUOTE]
I believe those are Coolia.
For taking pictures with your cell phone, I would recommend a universal mount such as this https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06X...+universal&dpPl=1&dpID=41IqzDVQfwL&ref=plSrch to get better quality pictures and videos.

 

[mcarroll]

I updated the links at the bottom of the first post to some more relevant/recent links:

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

• The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
• Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
  
• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

 

[wopadobop]

So ostreopsis is benthis or palagic ? Uv?

Ps . Plankton doesn’t do anything but make me dump more po4 into the tank! Lol

 

[Beardo]

So ostreopsis is benthis or palagic ? Uv?

Ps . Plankton doesn’t do anything but make me dump more po4 into the tank! Lol

UV is effective against Ostreopsis

 

[JonJ]

Ok, hopefully this will work! I bought a better microscope do hopefully this will make it easier to determine.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I believe those are Coolia.
For taking pictures with your cell phone, I would recommend a universal mount such as this https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06X...+universal&dpPl=1&dpID=41IqzDVQfwL&ref=plSrch to get better quality pictures and videos.[/QUOTE]


Thanks, I used a small tripod but I’ll get what you linked just for ease of use. So far I only get a light dusting on the sandbed only. I went 2 days with lights out and the tank looked perfect. Now while trying to raise nitrates (currently 1.5 ppm) and phosphates (.03 ppm), it has made it come back worse in my sump and it is smothering my chaeto. Considering taking out the sandbed and nuking the sump tomorrow (taking it offline and bleaching everything). The corals, snails and fish seem indifferent to this for now and it doesn’t look that bad. I’m just worried it’s going to start killing my corals.

 

[Paullawr]

Ok, hopefully this will work! I bought a better microscope do hopefully this will make it easier to determine.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I believe those are Coolia.
For taking pictures with your cell phone, I would recommend a universal mount such as this https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B06X...+universal&dpPl=1&dpID=41IqzDVQfwL&ref=plSrch to get better quality pictures and videos.[/QUOTE]


Why's my bowel of semolina moving...

 

[bh750]

Brett if it's snotty I'm not sure if that's Large cell Amphidinium. Also I think at night the large cell Amph go under the
sand and not in the water column.

 

[bh750]

Large Cell Amphidinium (post #1191)...
See that link for my post rounding up some accounts of mine and others versus this type.
It's been coming up a bunch lately, so I've been thinking a bit and got ideas for a direct cell removal method. This is needed because it is the only kind that we know will not go into the water, and can't be touched by UV or other methods targeting the water column.

What you need:

• A UV unit,
• 5 gal bucket or two
• Tubing for vacuuming out sand
• fresh water (tap is fine)

Siphon the sand surface trouble spots (get all the cyano too - amphidinium hangs out in cyano a lot) into a 5gal bucket or similar. Not a 1/4" airline tube - too small. Think Gravel Vac, but without the wide mouth that slows the flow and lets the sand grains fall back down. 1/2 or 3/4" tube or so. Whatever is quick and relatively painless.

If you aren't wanting to do water changes, run the water that you siphoned out (not the sand - leave it in bucket for later) from your 5 Gal bucket through a UV unit - slowly back into the tank. If you wanna be real thorough, run the water through the UV into a 2nd 5 Gal bucket, then from the 2nd bucket through the UV again back into the tank.
Very few amphidinium should even be in the water - they'll hug the sand - but those that do, should not survive a trip or two through slow-flow (200 gph)UV.

Now for the sand. Scoop with a net as fine as whatever size grains you want to keep and dunk under fresh water (even tap is fine) for 10 seconds.
Then replace the sand back into the tank. The 10 seconds of fresh water will lyse the amphidinium cells, but it should be short enough to allow most of the stronger inverts (pods, shrimp, ostracods, worms, etc) to survive.

That's the best I've got so far on a selective cell killing for Large Cell Amphidinium.

@taricha I'm thinking about trying this. It sounds like the idea is to knock them back enough to allow other organisms to catch up and balance things out?

Right now I just siphon them right out with some sand and put the sand in a bucket to clean and sterilize for later use down the road.

 

[mwilk19]

For those of you who are new to UV sterilizers like I am\was. I added a Jeboa 55w UV unit last July as a way to deal with my dino infestation. It was very effective in eliminating them. It's recommended that you occasionally clean the quartz sleeve in the unit. I just took mine apart to clean the sleeve and replace the bulb. I assumed it would be covered in slime algae. It wasn't. I was covered in salt creep which had to have made the unit very inefficient. Be sure to clean the unit from time to time otherwise it won't do its job and you'll just be wasting electricity, like me.

 

[zachxlutz]

For those of you who are new to UV sterilizers like I am\was. I added a Jeboa 55w UV unit last July as a way to deal with my dino infestation. It was very effective in eliminating them. It's recommended that you occasionally clean the quartz sleeve in the unit. I just took mine apart to clean the sleeve and replace the bulb. I assumed it would be covered in slime algae. It wasn't. I was covered in salt creep which had to have made the unit very inefficient. Be sure to clean the unit from time to time otherwise it won't do its job and you'll just be wasting electricity, like me.

Thanks for the advice. I was planning on servicing mine once every 6 months, but it sounds like I should at least disassemble and inspect quarterly.

 

[CDavmd]

Well I've been lurking for some time and thought I should finally join in. I've had a ~40 gallon system running for close to 11 years. Its gone through all sorts of mods and changes over the years and is getting ready to be retired when I complete my new build of a 425XL. I was an early adopter of vodka dosing back a few years and eventually converted to Red Seas NOPOX when it first came out. About 2 years ago life got in the way of my reefing and my tank was significantly neglected. Stopped dosing anything, Water changes were sparse at best maybe 4 gallons every couple months. I kept my ATO with Kalk going and that seemed to supply what was needed. I fed sparingly and despite the neglect the tank actually did very well. Corals grew out to really large colonies, coralline was everywhere and the front glass was starting to get obscured. Very little turf algae as well. Goes to show that stability trumps all.

In August with life under control once again I thought I would clean things up. I scraped the glass off, fragged some of the colonies and while I was at it I removed some of my sand bed which was many years old. I modified the scape a bit and added 3 new fish and a few new frags to those that were already there. I went through a mini diatom bloom and when things settled down all looked very good. I started dosing NOPOX again trying to keep my Nitrate around 1-2 and Phos around 0.01. Corals and new frags took off, color was great and all looked good. In late october some of my SPS started getting that pastel look and had lost some of their rich color. Around this time I had to go on a work meeting and left the wife in charge to simply dose the NOPOX. I got home 10 days later and several corals were bleached and others looked faded. I checked parameters and my Nitrate and Phos were down to 0. It appears my wife misunderstood and doubled the NOPOX dose while I was away.

I stopped dosing for a bit, fed a little heavier and waited things out. The nutrient levels would come up and then bottom out for the next 3 weeks until things started to settle down. It was around this time that I first noted what I thought were diatoms. Brown gold patches in my sand. They would be gone in the morning and return by then end of the photo cycle. I'd siphon them out during my weekly water changes and at first that would control them until a day or two before then next water change- but eventually they would return almost immediately and started spreading all over. They never really got on the rocks and the corals were doing fine. Many of the bleached corals started recovering. I lost a few snails but many seemed unaffected.

It was around this time that I encountered this thread. I read some of it and it terrified me....did I have the dreaded Dino's after so many years without issues or pests?? I broke out my old Nikon med school microscope and sure enough....the ******** were swimming all over the microscope slide. Using the ID link in the thread I diagnosed them as Amphidinium. So heres what I did over the past couple months once I realized what they were-

1. Decreased my photoperiod and dropped the green, red, and white LED's on my Hydra to 0.
2. Started dosing peroxide
3. Continued siphoning with my weekly water changes and increased the flow significantly. Prior to a water change, I would set my vortices to 100 and blast my rocks an stir everything up and filter through a 100 micron sock. Then change the sock out and do the water change.
4. Increased the feedings
5. Started dosing Nitrate via flourish and Phosphate

None of this did much and I was fed up. We went away for New years and I basically said screw it and left the tank to itself. No more water changes, no more dosing of elements other than the Kalk in my ATO, kept feeding a cube daily. The dino's continued but seemed to lighten in color a bit. I started to see some small patches of turf algae on the rocks here and there but not out of control in any sense. I've continued doing this for the past month and slowly things have improved a bit. Two weeks ago I considered DINO-X and dosed for the first time. I did not see much effect after two doses and then realized that I still had my carbon and poly filter in the sump. I removed those and continued dosing DINO-X as per the instructions. I'm on dose number 6 thus far. In addition to this I purchased some 5 micron filters on amazon and siphoned out the surface of my sand bed everywhere. I then blasted the rocks and stirred up the tank with the pumps at full. During this I went ahead and poured in some peroxide.

Well that was about 10 days ago and I have to say things are much much better. The sand looks clean with the exception of a couple very minor areas near the corners where I see the some brown gold sand. I'm continuing to feed daily, no water change since December 26th, currently no carbon or and type media. I have not dosed supplements other than Kalk in my ATO. My skimmer is still going at full. I've also dosed some Dr. Tims eco-balance on a weekly basis which is something I had done in the past. I am continuing the Dino-X and siphoning out any dino's I see every 2-3 days.
Currently my Phosphate is at 0.03 and Nitrate is at 6. Alk of 7.9, Calcium of 420, pH 8.37, and salinity 1.027.

It seems I'm on the right track and I have my fingers crossed. I thought I would share what seems to be working. To be continued.....

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread, its been very helpful and I'm glad I came across it.

Well heres the update:

After now 10 doses of DINO-X, Siphoning through the 5 micron filter, and continuing my daily feedings it seemed to be working. The dino's would only re-appear around day 8-9. My corals have started looking a bit worse for the wear. Some spots of bleaching and an SPS is starting to go the route of STN. I stopped the DINO-X and I'm considering going ahead with the first water change in over a month. I've been watching my nutrients and the Phos has been steady above 0.1...usually between 0.15 and 0.19, my nitrates have been in the 6-12 range this entire time. So 2 days after the end of DINO-X dosing the Dino's seem to be regaining a bigger foothold. It is nowhere near the level when I started but they clearly are making a comeback. What I have noticed is despite all the elevated nutrients, I have very little film algae and have not needed to scrape the glass in over 2 weeks. There are a few very tiny spots of turf algae but the tank looks remarkably clean with the exception of the a slight dusting of the golden dino's here and there. I'm left to conclude the DINO-X must be a pretty serious algaecide!. I know it is made of organo-ammonium compounds which act as surfactants but it clearly is blunting any growth of algae and "somewhat" knocking back the Amphidinium species.

At this point with the corals looking a bit bad and the Dino's still lurking I think I am done with the DINO-X. I'm going to run some carbon in my sump along with some Polyfilter to get the water detoxified and help the corals. I'll keep siphoning them out until I have no sand left
Probably will go ahead with a water change as well. Will keep my nutrients up and hope to see more algae return that hopefully will eventually outcompete the dino's. I'm intrigued by the earlier posts of adding Silicates and causing a Diatom bloom. Food for thought but will keep it on the back burner. Do not want too many variables.

.....once more unto the breach dear friends!

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Bret if it's snotty I'm not sure if that's Large cell Amphidinium. Also I think at night the large cell Amph go under the
sand and not in the water column.

I'm not sure it is any more either, but that is what it was originally identified as. What ever it is now, there is strong evidence that it goes into the water column so I am planning to get a UV unit. But if it is large cell amphidinium, then it would appear dosing nutrients has made it go into the column at night. This behavior started about a week into dosing. I'll try to ID it using some of the resources from this thread, but I don't seem to be very good at identifying these things so it may take some time.

 

[CDavmd]

I'm seeing more and more new threads on a weekly basis with brown sand issues and what appear to be Dino's. Is it me or are we truly reaching plague proportions?? What the ...is going on??

 

[cchomistek]

I think I may be making some headway on the battle with amphidinium dinos. I am now dosing the old steadfast Randy's recipe for alk and calc. My No3 is at about 5-10ppm and po4 is around .08

Green hair algae has taken off pretty good and I sucked out the top layer of sand into a 5 micron filter and the amphidium do not seem to be overgrowing the sand or on the rocks anymore. There are still a few places where they are on the sand but they don't seem to be spreading as much anymore.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Same thing that happens in the medical industry, awareness. Once people are aware of the issue, then diagnoses skyrocket. The aquarium industry will eventually get on board and react, then diagnoses will begin to drop and it will become common knowledge to not bottom out your nutrients.