Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Dom274]

I haven't really read any of the earlier posts here, I thought this thread was people doing some in-depth research or something, but dinos are easy to get rid of. Just don't do anything and it will clear up in a week or two.

If I get a flair up of dinos, it's because I changed too much water during a water change and threw the ecosystem off a little. Not really a "Mini-cycle" per se... More like a mini mini cycle... I'm no biologist - But I figured doing less water changes allows all the various bacterial populations to re-stabilize at their equilibrium. If you change too much water, too much bacteria is removed from the system. Something is going to fill in the gaps and consume the excess nutrients - I always just thought Dinos showed up because they reproduced the quickest. As long as you have some sand sifting going on, just ignore the dinos and let the tank settle back down.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I haven't really read any of the earlier posts here, I thought this thread was people doing some in-depth research or something, but dinos are easy to get rid of. Just don't do anything and it will clear up in a week or two.

If I get a flair up of dinos, it's because I changed too much water during a water change and threw the ecosystem off a little. Not really a "Mini-cycle" per se... More like a mini mini cycle... I'm no biologist - But I figured doing less water changes allows all the various bacterial populations to re-stabilize at their equilibrium. If you change too much water, too much bacteria is removed from the system. Something is going to fill in the gaps and consume the excess nutrients - I always just thought Dinos showed up because they reproduced the quickest. As long as you have some sand sifting going on, just ignore the dinos and let the tank settle back down.

Sounds good. Wish it were that simple ;Hilarious

Mind doing a large water change and ID'ing those little ones so we can add it to the recommendations?

 

[Javamahn]

Bottles of magical fixes. This will be good to hear all the positive and negative reviews

I think the influx on this thread is going to grow quickly. Local LFS says many folks asking about Dino's. I suggested he stock some 55W UV. They will likely start flying off the shelves as folks read the positive results along with N management

 

[reeferfoxx]

I think the influx on this thread is going to grow quickly. Local LFS says many folks asking about Dino's. I suggested he stock some 55W UV. They will likely start flying off the shelves as folks read the positive results along with N management

I went to my LFS for UV once. I figured, since they were growing some glorious snot colonies in their DT, they might sell them? Nope... LOL ;Facepalm

 

[Dom274]

Sounds good. Wish it were that simple ;Hilarious

Mind doing a large water change and ID'ing those little ones so we can add it to the recommendations?

Lol, I haven't seen a microscope in person in 20 years. I honestly think ID'ing them is a waste of time - The solution is pretty much the same regardless of which type you have...

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000

 

[Dom274]

Sounds good. Wish it were that simple ;Hilarious

Mind doing a large water change and ID'ing those little ones so we can add it to the recommendations?

Julian Sprung is an algae expert - I stole the section below from the reefcentral thread I linked.


http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/tags.php?tag=julian+sprung


Dinoflagellates are protists, and include photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic varieties. They can be toxic. They are responsible for red tide, which can lead to ciguatera poisoning in people who eat fish that consume the dinoflagellates in the red tide.

They certainly can kill snails.

If you see a dead snail remove it right away, otherwise the toxins and nutrients will be released back into the water.

Reducing light may have no effect. High Ph limits their growth so use kalkwasser if you can. Humic factors may stimulate their growth so activated charcoal may limit this influence.

Julian Sprung recommends: "Let it run its course. Discontinue water changes for the duration of the bloom. ...boost alkalinity... use activated carbon." Chemi Clean could have reduced the bacterial population, which normally competes for nutrients with the dinoflagellates, and stimulated a bloom. Blooms are usually self limited and usually last weeks, but could last months.

 

[Dom274]

I think the influx on this thread is going to grow quickly. Local LFS says many folks asking about Dino's. I suggested he stock some 55W UV. They will likely start flying off the shelves as folks read the positive results along with N management

Dinos aren't new or anything... The links I posted are over 10 years old... I had no idea people were still struggling with them...

 

[reeferfoxx]

use activated carbon." Chemi Clean could have reduced the bacterial population, which normally competes for nutrients with the dinoflagellates, and stimulated a bloom. Blooms are usually self limited and usually last weeks, but could last months.

I agree with this. The latter "Discontinue water changes for the duration of the bloom." as we have found only applies to some species and can effect fish and coral after so long.

dinoflagellates in the red tide

This type of specie hasn't to the best of my knowledge never plagued an aquarium. Ocean and geographic or environmental differences don't mimic what happens in artificial reef aquaria.

High Ph limits their growth

This has been discussed recently and certain species like Amphidinium aren't effected by high pH even upwards of 10. However, a pH of 10 can kill fish and coral.

In some cases not doing anything can be beneficial. It really helped me with coolia but coolia was the second dinos after my initial bloom of another dino(i didn't ID it at the time).

I had no idea people were still struggling with them

Some of us dubbed 2017 the year of the dino. Though, we are seeing more and more new cases everyday. Retailers, LFS's, importers are all being plagued with it. Knock on wood you don't see it anytime soon.

 

[Dom274]

I agree with this. The latter "Discontinue water changes for the duration of the bloom." as we have found only applies to some species and can effect fish and coral after so long.


Some of us dubbed 2017 the year of the dino. Though, we are seeing more and more new cases everyday. Retailers, LFS's, importers are all being plagued with it. Knock on wood you don't see it anytime soon.

Bring it on. I just beat it again these past couple of weeks on a 2 month old "new" tank I started at the beginning of Dec. I'm no biologist, so I don't have a leg to stand on here - but to me, it looked like a bunch of people were just itching to use their microscopes because they think micro-scoping a reef tank is cool (Whatever floats your boat). Julian Sprung's is a published algae expert and founder of Two Little Fishies - Many people have followed his instructions with success. All of this work has already been done before, if anything we are just muddying the waters even more.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I just beat it again these past couple of weeks on a 2 month old "new" tank I started at the beginning of Dec

I know who julian sprung is lol.

Do you know what is causing it?

but to me, it looked like a bunch of people were just itching to use their microscopes because they think micro-scoping a reef tank is cool (Whatever floats your boat).

This isn't necessary.

 

[five.five-six]

DinoX seems to be hit and miss, from what I read you have a 50-50 chance that it solved your problem or does nothing.

 

[taricha]

I just beat it again these past couple of weeks on a 2 month old "new" tank I started at the beginning of Dec....
but to me, it looked like a bunch of people were just itching to use their microscopes because they think micro-scoping a reef tank is cool

Lol, I haven't seen a microscope in person in 20 years. I honestly think ID'ing them is a waste of time - The solution is pretty much the same regardless of which type you have...

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000

I like the occasional contrarian to keep us on our toes.
I plead guilty to thinking scope IDs are fun
and I also concede that if you have Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum or Coolia the recommended treatments are the same.
Their differences are of degree, not of kind.
But that's not the type I had, and what worked for mine wouldn't have worked for any of those. Nor would what worked on those have worked on mine.
Dude, your first link is full of advice that no one who has dealt with dinos recently would trust:
"In my case, all the above was true besides that the color was green. [instead of brown]"
"One effective control is photoperiod. Try leaving your lights off for a full day, thereafter maintaining a photoperiod of only four hours per day"
"Dinoflagellates have much of the same nutritional requirements as other microalgae.... ...The use of phosphate absorbing medium has resulted in their eradication..."
And those last two claim to have been quoted from Sprung's book.

The 2nd link is a 4400+post thread that does not claim any particular method for cure. It's filled with disputes about methods because people would occasionally wander in and without confirming the ID of what they actually had - and if it was even dinos - would say what worked for them would work for all dinos. (I followed/posted in that thread for a long time)

Speaking of, are you sure your outbreak was dinos?

 

[Paullawr]

Bring it on. I just beat it again these past couple of weeks on a 2 month old "new" tank I started at the beginning of Dec. I'm no biologist, so I don't have a leg to stand on here - but to me, it looked like a bunch of people were just itching to use their microscopes because they think micro-scoping a reef tank is cool (Whatever floats your boat). Julian Sprung's is a published algae expert and founder of Two Little Fishies - Many people have followed his instructions with success. All of this work has already been done before, if anything we are just muddying the waters even more.

Julian sprung is about as far detached from curing protists as I am with cancer.

Don't get me wrong, he is a knowledgable guy, just not specifically in this area. His ideas are the typical cure it all of twenty year ago.

You might as well load up one of his phosphate reactors and lob marine snow at it for all the good it will do.

I don't discount you have had dinoflagellates but to me it's seems they are encysting rather than being controlled or eradicated.

This is exactly the type of scenario I was referring to earlier where people then pass on strains via coral sales and swaps.
Whilst nothing maybe visible in the few weeks between water changes whatever they don't like in your tank may well be the opposite to the person that receives a frag.

I degres, the fact is people here share success and potential failures. I'm afraid I'd look to @taricha, @reeferfoxx @mcarroll advice as opposed to Julian sprung in this area. In fact the newer guys like @tonymac could probably teach him a thing or two. I'm also sure he'd listen and reavulate his methods as well.

Why? because we all learn in this hobby and so by sharing advice and knowledge helps us better ourselves.

When the problems start is when conjecture is thrown in to the mix. That's why we are where we are.

 

[Paullawr]

I like the occasional contrarian to keep us on our toes.
I plead guilty to thinking scope IDs are fun
and I also concede that if you have Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum or Coolia the recommended treatments are the same.
Their differences are of degree, not of kind.
But that's not the type I had, and what worked for mine wouldn't have worked for any of those. Nor would what worked on those have worked on mine.
Dude, your first link is full of advice that no one who has dealt with dinos recently would trust:
"In my case, all the above was true besides that the color was green. [instead of brown]"
"One effective control is photoperiod. Try leaving your lights off for a full day, thereafter maintaining a photoperiod of only four hours per day"
"Dinoflagellates have much of the same nutritional requirements as other microalgae.... ...The use of phosphate absorbing medium has resulted in their eradication..."
And those last two claim to have been quoted from Sprung's book.

The 2nd link is a 4400+post thread that does not claim any particular method for cure. It's filled with disputes about methods because people would occasionally wander in and without confirming the ID of what they actually had - and if it was even dinos - would say what worked for them would work for all dinos. (I followed/posted in that thread for a long time)

Speaking of, are you sure your outbreak was dinos?

Absolutely on the money. Well said.

I think many of us have browsed the reef central thread. I wonder how many actually gave up their tanks or own solutions and advice when the pest re-emerges. Like at a water change.

I really cannot recommend it on my own experience.

 

[Paullawr]

I went to my LFS for UV once. I figured, since they were growing some glorious snot colonies in their DT, they might sell them? Nope... LOL ;Facepalm

All of mine do. Since my closest lfs closed a few year back I've nowhere to buy un-infessted livestock from.

I wanted a Picasso clown the other week. The guy pointed me to one of the tanks and said this is a nice juvenile.
My response was... I'm not buying anything out of that system.
Why was the reply I got.

I did under my breath mention the word dinoflagellates at which point he looked at me as if I'd just said... You have bananas growing in there.

Wasted conversation and clearly even if they did attempt to resolve the issue they would no doubt turn to literature on removing algae by say the likes of Julian sprung....and get nowhere fast.

 

[Paullawr]

DinoX is back ordered everywhere. Lots of folks looking for answers

Dinox, two separate bottles bought two year apart from different sellers. Why I mention this..? Just to advise it wasn't the same batch.

Both did zip at curing osteo. In fact just ruined both tanks and killed just about everything in them using the dosing methods provided over the maximum weeks recommended.

The only thing that appeared out of nowhere was what I can only describe as a radioactive variant of maidens hair algae pop up. It was so bright I should of cultured it for sale.

I spoke with fauna marin and as said previously it only works only species that eat. I still to this day do not know what species he was referring to.

Basically if it doesn't clear them up by the third dosage, it's not going to.

 

[becks]

I’m tearing my tank down and starting from scratch. My dinoflagellates has retuned and the only change in my tank was increasing the lighting. Dinos appeared, then my corals stopped growing ie tips on my sps are not white, month cap edge is no longer white etc.

I would combat them again, but when I went on holiday for 9 days I came back to explosion of vermatied worms. The tank was only feed two cubes of frozen over the 9 days too.

I’m starting with live rock, ever since I used pukani rock I had nothing but problems and partly I blame the lack of biodiversity.

Last time I beat Dinos with the dirty method, but once they cleared up I had to fight GHA, as I let the GHA grow a bit to ensure the Dinos did not come back.

Once my tank is empty, I’ll run it with water and bleach, then scrub the tank with bleach water, let it dry completely for a few days and then fill it back up.

 

[bh750]

[bold] EDIT: apologize in advance for my picture and video postings. I dont know what I do wrong but for some reason whenever I link to a hosted picture they don't seem to work. I'm using the IMG tag hosting pics from google pictures. UGH! Always happens to me -- and I'm quite technical savvy . Even my HTML for bold isnt picking up. What am I doing wrong?? [/bold]

Think about this.

^^^

Sandbed diversity. This is something i've been 'experimenting' with. Constant sandbed disruption in accordance with diversity disruption(amongst other things in my situation) I believe attributed to slow progression in dino and/or cyano eradication/progression. I think sandbeds not only have a job but also provide breeding grounds for diversity. I sort of base this judgement off spaghetti worm population. I see a reduction in worms when I disrupt the sandbed and a reduction in nitrogen gas. The less I mess with my sandbed, the more progress is witnessed.

I think the best course of action is to stir the top layer of sand and allow powerheads or wave pumps to do the rest. I also think the best time to stir the top layer is peak daytime or 2 hours before evening blues.

I'm have a fairly strong position of the benefits of a sandbed and, in my case, as DSB, Did alot of reading and even chatting with Dr. Ron Shimek. Without getting into DSB vs not I agree with all of the above and thing the diversity in the sand bed is key.

Yes. That's what I was referring to here.



The Small-Cell Amphidinium(10-20 microns) are referenced a bunch in the literature. I have yet to find anything informative published that is definitively about the Large-Cell Amphidinium (50-60 microns - same size as Ostis, Proros, Coolia) that shows up in our tanks so often.

My pics of a mixed outbreak in a nano tank. Totally distinct populations side-by side. Not babies and adults.

Ok so that explains what I found in my tank. Have a couple of pics and videos to show. Apologize in advance for the videos, its me holding my phone up to the lens...

First to your point about Amph dinos mixing with Cyano, here it is in my tank

100x

Same photo zoomed in

Here's a video of them swimming amongst the cyano -- they look slower I think b/c the sample had been out on the slide for a bit while I got my phone right

100X

400x
these are Large celled Amp right?

Next, here's what I think might be combination of Large and Small celled Amph? I took this sample from a part of my sandbed that looked clean.

100x

400x

Check out a video of them flying around -- are these small celled Amph? (again apologize for the video quality at the start)

100x

400x

If I'm right then does that mean small-celled ones aren't a problem or out of balance b/c they arent causing any noticeable appearance on my sandbed?

 

[bh750]

TLDR version of this post: If you have Large-Cell Amphidinium, strongly consider dosing Si to outcompete with diatoms.

Ok, after running it down a bit, this was discussed but never thoroughly tested. Those looking had lots of other leads to chase down, and one guy posted:


So lots of other things to test, and one account of a guy who says he had dinos (no picture evidence posted) and got back a reading from Triton of "Way high" Silicates (note - 1.5 ppm still not likely Si:N ratio of 1 as recommended by paper). This is why people didn't pursue this test this the first go round.
.......
The full paper itself is Really Good. This Si for sand bed amphidinium deserves a thorough test, especially since the sand is also prime diatom real estate.
But I hope you have something that eats diatoms, because you might get a lot of them

Ok I have to say for the first time an approach to battle my Dinos sounds waaaay to over my head and complicated for me to endeavor.

With that said, the one point about a sandstorm kicking them into the water column. I wonder if I stirred the bed pretty well, then ran the display tank water directly through a UV sterilizer, and kept doing that over a period of time?

 

[xabo]

A LFS in my area recommended Fluconozale to battle Dino.............anyone tried this? I'm skeptical.