Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[saltyhog]

Sorry I'm kind of punch drunk from all of this. What are the recommended ranges for NO3 and PO4. I've seen mention of everything from as long as it's not zero to nitrate >10 and phosphate of 2.5.

Should I ditch my chaeto for now or is it removing the organic forms of nitrate and phosphate beneficial? Water changes (vacuuming the sand) are how I am able to manually remove. Is it ok to do that as long as I maintain adequate nutrient levels? I do blow the rocks off a couple of times a day and change the filter socks often.

Sorry for so many questions, this is the worst feeling I've had in all the years I've been keeping reef tanks.

 

[Paullawr]

What this thread needs is a better sticky front page.

Listed nutrient ranges to aim for. Per strain if it needs it.

Known effective methods to remove each known strain.

Basic do and don'ts.

Then keep those updated. The rest of thread can be to discuss new ideas and successes/failures.

This is why I had a moan the other week with it feeling like it's gone full circle. Most of the criticisms with the other thread and starting to become apparent here.

 

[Paullawr]

Sorry I'm kind of punch drunk from all of this. What are the recommended ranges for NO3 and PO4. I've seen mention of everything from as long as it's not zero to nitrate >10 and phosphate of 2.5.

Should I ditch my chaeto for now or is it removing the organic forms of nitrate and phosphate beneficial? Water changes (vacuuming the sand) are how I am able to manually remove. Is it ok to do that as long as I maintain adequate nutrient levels? I do blow the rocks off a couple of times a day and change the filter socks often.

Sorry for so many questions, this is the worst feeling I've had in all the years I've been keeping reef tanks.

The truth is, no one really knows an exact range or want to commit to a figure incase it doesn't work.

The usual advice I see is raise it so its detectable maintain that level and see if it responds negatively to the nutrients (negative to the protist that is).

For what it's worth here are my recommendations. These are hardly ever agreed on by folk so each to their own.

1)
If tank is absolutely wrecked by this stuff then a few day blackout doesn't hurt and helps provide some immediate relief.

It won't cure the issue and it will rebound a couple of days after blackout but it might give the tank inhabitants and you a plan of attack.

After blackout use blue led as 'reported' but not proven to be more difficult for dinoflagellates to utilise photosynthesis at that light wavelength.

I don't know much I belive that but that's the advice I've followed. Keep the intensity dialed back and reduce photo period.

2) remove by hand ie syphon frequently after blackout.

3) if things are still south buy some metroplex. If you have a large tank your going to need a a fair amount. Metroplex as proven will not cure your tank but it seriouslys messes with their DNA and stops reproduction. It takes about a week to notice a difference whilst continuing to remove by hand. It's good up until day 21ish from memory.

What is the point of this? Breathing space. Again for you and the tank inhabitants.
It works well with point 4).

You cannot use carbon though so if going to do this run carbon heavy before treating. And remove as much snot as possible.

4) Big momma as$ UV. Works very well on your flavour of prehistoric pest. Go buy the biggest you can run and afford. Id be running a 55w on my 10g tank.

5) maintain nutrients. Tweak and monitor.

6) Luck, sweat and tears.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[mcarroll]

However, there is not one speck of algae in the DT proper and my only herbivore is a moderate sized purple tang. Is this not odd?

It's definitely not normal or good!

And here's the stuff from the first post:

Specifically for Ostreopsis, consider skipping ahead to post #86 and #905 as the information is still developing.

ostreopsis

If you have already raised nutrients levels AND you have signs of other life still being around (this is great!) then you should be able to allow nutrient levels to fall naturally, just don't let anything fall back to zero. (That's the nutshell version....read those links! You'll see why I say that when you look. )

Hopefully you've taken care of anything and everything that could make nutrient levels inconsistent – especially inconsistent feeding practices. Use an auto-feeder for at least part of your feedings IMO. Not saying use it to increase the amount of food going in though. That's not the same thing.

Keep up with any and all manual processes, including scrubbing, siphoning...and sand bed removal if that's on your radar or list of things to do.

 

[mcarroll]

What are the recommended ranges for NO3 and PO4.

≥ 5-10 ppm NO3
≥ 0.10 ppm PO4

 

[Paullawr]

≥ 5-10 ppm NO3
≥ 0.10 ppm PO4

Sticky it John. Martin, Mathew, Mike.

Why does that sound partially biblical.

 

[mcarroll]

My NO3 has been undetectable ever since my restart and PO4 has been varying from 0.02-0.05 by running GFO when needed.

Just wanted to point out that your case is actually pretty unusual in being apparently caused by N-startvation only. P-starvation (or both) is much more common.

That has obviously kept your algae growing.

Try not to worry too much about this, BTW. It's all a learning experience and you'll be a MUCH better (informed) reefer by the end of the experience. It will be all-good in the end!

One additional thought. Is there a relationship between PO4 and NO3 that results in the reduction of one if the other is dosed?

Many. Carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus are the big three nutrients, so anything to do with cell growth or division uses them up. That by itself is a lot. But there are lots of coincidental and much more specific uses for them as well.

What's usually noticed is when one of them goes out of balance....effects depend on which one. Eutrophication is kinda what's happening here....excess of one element in the system causes an unnatural depletion of another crucial element that's not normally limiting.

 

[saltyhog]

Thanks guys!

I really don't have any inconsistent feeding practices. I have been feeding more (but consistently) for many more months than the problem has been there. I think my biological filter is just more than is needed for my nutrient import. My PO4 was up to 0.05 last night so it's headed the right direction. I will have some phosphate supplement available tomorrow. I'll get more aggressive then with elevating both nitrate and phosphate.

Are dinos toxic to snails? My conchs eat it like crazy. I've not noted any snail losses (turbos, trochus, 2 kinds of conchs). My shrimp (blood, skunk) seem to be fine. Only corals seem to be suffering so far.

 

[mcarroll]

Sounds good overall!

I think my biological filter is just more than is needed for my nutrient import.

I'd cut back on it to just a normal amount....more is not better. In this circumstance it's probably even a little harmful to the effort.

Are dinos toxic to snails?

Can be.

My conchs eat it like crazy. I've not noted any snail losses (turbos, trochus, 2 kinds of conchs). My shrimp (blood, skunk) seem to be fine.

The effects are cumulative and might be more concentrated in the mucus than the cells.

If you're running activated carbon and there no mucus apparently hitting your corals, then it may be something else stressing them coincidentally.....starvation, etc.

 

[Bebow]

Hard to be sure but Id say sanded is 1.5-2inches thick?

I'd be looking to remove and give it a good rinse in fresh water first or remove and leave out whilst treatment commence. Sure there will be people who disagree but Amphidinium likes sand.

Spent the better part of today working on my Amphidinium problem. Decided to remove some of the sand and give the rest a thorough vacuuming also brushed the rock while sucking them up. I’m pleasantly surprised, very little regeration on the sand! After 5 hours only a few light brown patches! The Plan is to hit it again tomorrow, vacuum and recycle water though a filter sock. Not sure what the micron is on these socks but a check verified no Amphidinium where getting through. I also put another skimmer in the sump.
I did Raise NO3 and PO4 a few days ago, last check was N 8ppm and P 1ppm so dosed P as that is a drop from yesterday. Algae is showing up, never thought green would look this good! The tangs are loving it.
So this is progress but I’m prepared for the long haul.
Thanks agin for the help!

 

[mcarroll]

So this is progress but I’m prepared for the long haul.

This is great to hear!!

 

[Bebow]

Are dinos toxic to snails? My conchs eat it like crazy. I've not noted any snail losses (turbos, trochus, 2 kinds of conchs). My shrimp (blood, skunk) seem to be fine. Only corals seem to be suffering so far.

Knowing what I know now I’d be looking to rehome the conch. Mine was munching away also, went out of town for week when I got back I noticed he was staying in the same spot so I started investigating. Then noticed bristleworms crawling out of his shell, it was an empty shell. I’m not sure how many snails I’ve lost but vacuuming sand today turned up 5 or 6 empty cerith shells.

 

[matic]

My tank is clearing up nicely from a amphidinium outbreak, I've done a 8 day complete blackout with 55 watt UV and 30 ml h2O2 dosing daily, and a daily dose of Coral snow mixed with zeobak. I'm not sure what part of my treatment was succesfull but I have made a huge dent in their population. The amphidium is still on my sand but only 5% of my original bloom. I'm afraid if I restore my lights (3x hydra 26HD) to my original schedule de dino's will bloom again. Keeping the lights on blue and purple/uv only seems to help. I've added a big piece of live rock that is filled with pods and worms, I hope this will help whipe out my remaining dino's. Nutriënt are kept at 0,08 phos and 10 ppm nitrate.

Before:


After:

 

[CDavmd]

Well I've been lurking for some time and thought I should finally join in. I've had a ~40 gallon system running for close to 11 years. Its gone through all sorts of mods and changes over the years and is getting ready to be retired when I complete my new build of a 425XL. I was an early adopter of vodka dosing back a few years and eventually converted to Red Seas NOPOX when it first came out. About 2 years ago life got in the way of my reefing and my tank was significantly neglected. Stopped dosing anything, Water changes were sparse at best maybe 4 gallons every couple months. I kept my ATO with Kalk going and that seemed to supply what was needed. I fed sparingly and despite the neglect the tank actually did very well. Corals grew out to really large colonies, coralline was everywhere and the front glass was starting to get obscured. Very little turf algae as well. Goes to show that stability trumps all.

In August with life under control once again I thought I would clean things up. I scraped the glass off, fragged some of the colonies and while I was at it I removed some of my sand bed which was many years old. I modified the scape a bit and added 3 new fish and a few new frags to those that were already there. I went through a mini diatom bloom and when things settled down all looked very good. I started dosing NOPOX again trying to keep my Nitrate around 1-2 and Phos around 0.01. Corals and new frags took off, color was great and all looked good. In late october some of my SPS started getting that pastel look and had lost some of their rich color. Around this time I had to go on a work meeting and left the wife in charge to simply dose the NOPOX. I got home 10 days later and several corals were bleached and others looked faded. I checked parameters and my Nitrate and Phos were down to 0. It appears my wife misunderstood and doubled the NOPOX dose while I was away.

I stopped dosing for a bit, fed a little heavier and waited things out. The nutrient levels would come up and then bottom out for the next 3 weeks until things started to settle down. It was around this time that I first noted what I thought were diatoms. Brown gold patches in my sand. They would be gone in the morning and return by then end of the photo cycle. I'd siphon them out during my weekly water changes and at first that would control them until a day or two before then next water change- but eventually they would return almost immediately and started spreading all over. They never really got on the rocks and the corals were doing fine. Many of the bleached corals started recovering. I lost a few snails but many seemed unaffected.

It was around this time that I encountered this thread. I read some of it and it terrified me....did I have the dreaded Dino's after so many years without issues or pests?? I broke out my old Nikon med school microscope and sure enough....the jerks were swimming all over the microscope slide. Using the ID link in the thread I diagnosed them as Amphidinium. So heres what I did over the past couple months once I realized what they were-

1. Decreased my photoperiod and dropped the green, red, and white LED's on my Hydra to 0.
2. Started dosing peroxide
3. Continued siphoning with my weekly water changes and increased the flow significantly. Prior to a water change, I would set my vortices to 100 and blast my rocks an stir everything up and filter through a 100 micron sock. Then change the sock out and do the water change.
4. Increased the feedings
5. Started dosing Nitrate via flourish and Phosphate

None of this did much and I was fed up. We went away for New years and I basically said screw it and left the tank to itself. No more water changes, no more dosing of elements other than the Kalk in my ATO, kept feeding a cube daily. The dino's continued but seemed to lighten in color a bit. I started to see some small patches of turf algae on the rocks here and there but not out of control in any sense. I've continued doing this for the past month and slowly things have improved a bit. Two weeks ago I considered DINO-X and dosed for the first time. I did not see much effect after two doses and then realized that I still had my carbon and poly filter in the sump. I removed those and continued dosing DINO-X as per the instructions. I'm on dose number 6 thus far. In addition to this I purchased some 5 micron filters on amazon and siphoned out the surface of my sand bed everywhere. I then blasted the rocks and stirred up the tank with the pumps at full. During this I went ahead and poured in some peroxide.

Well that was about 10 days ago and I have to say things are much much better. The sand looks clean with the exception of a couple very minor areas near the corners where I see the some brown gold sand. I'm continuing to feed daily, no water change since December 26th, currently no carbon or and type media. I have not dosed supplements other than Kalk in my ATO. My skimmer is still going at full. I've also dosed some Dr. Tims eco-balance on a weekly basis which is something I had done in the past. I am continuing the Dino-X and siphoning out any dino's I see every 2-3 days.
Currently my Phosphate is at 0.03 and Nitrate is at 6. Alk of 7.9, Calcium of 420, pH 8.37, and salinity 1.027.

It seems I'm on the right track and I have my fingers crossed. I thought I would share what seems to be working. To be continued.....

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread, its been very helpful and I'm glad I came across it.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I've also dosed some Dr. Tims eco-balance

Any noticeable differences in using this?

 

[fishbox]

I'm curious about the Dr Tims as well

 

[saltyhog]

Just wanted to point out that your case is actually pretty unusual in being apparently caused by N-startvation only. P-starvation (or both) is much more common.

I wasn't clear on that. To be specific my phosphate was also undetectable when this started. It didn't stay that way for too long but it never has been above 0.03 since it bottomed out.

Not sure how much any of this contributed but it might help others. I was battling a pretty bad hair algae outbreak and started dosing with Vibrant. After about 8 weeks with no success I stopped and started running GFO aggressively. While it worked to get rid of my hair algae it quickly led to a slight case of "cyano" which actually turned out to be dino's.

I've been dosing nitrate and have it up to 1.0, also started dosing phosphate today. It may be placebo effect but it looks better and there doesn't seem to be as much on the rocks! We'll see. I'm testing nitrate and phosphate daily and adjusting dosing accordingly to reach the specified targets.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Not sure how much any of this contributed but it might help others. I was battling a pretty bad hair algae outbreak and started dosing with Vibrant. After about 8 weeks with no success I stopped and started running GFO aggressively. While it worked to get rid of my hair algae it quickly led to a slight case of "cyano" which actually turned out to be dino's.

Was this before or after dino?

 

[saltyhog]

Was this before or after dino?

Sorry, I treated with Vibrant for 8 weeks, then stopped and started the GFO and that's when the dino's started. A "perfect storm" of nutrient deprivation I'm guessing.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Sorry, I treated with Vibrant for 8 weeks, then stopped and started the GFO and that's when the dino's started. A "perfect storm" of nutrient deprivation I'm guessing.

Oh ok. I ask because after my dino outbreak and dosing nutrients, I got a big GHA outbreak. Not exactly knowing what to do about it, I tried vibrant for a few weeks and BAM! new strain of dinos popped up. Vibrant didn't do a thing. However, the dino I had (coolia) really only consumed nitrates rather than po4 or both. So, I was at this crossroads of GHA and dinos. I'm thinking what do I do? Well, I upped my bio-load(fish) and let everything run it's course for a month. The GHA starved itself out and the coolia disappeared.