Dinoflagelates. A disruptive treatment

[Beuchat]

Now on Day 12 of this treatment. Dinos are virtually gone - just a very small amount in a low flow area of the sand in one corner of the tank.

Since the Dinos seem to be held in check, I have not increased my dosage from the original .5 ml per 100L. However, over the past couple of days I've noticed a few things... Corals not opening as much, especially my GSP - only a small patch of green has come out of it's skeleton today. My Torch and Zoa's are not fully opened. I've also noticed some green algae on rocks now.

My parameters are:
Alk 10.5 (Hanna)
Calcium 370 (Red Sea)
Nitrate .2 (Hanna)
Phosphate 0 (Hanna)
Salinity 1.025

I've continued dosing All For Reef during this time. My question is, should I start dosing NeoNitro and NeoPhos again to get those numbers up?

@Beuchat - thoughts on next steps?

Hi, bear in mind that all for reefs include organic carbon in their composition, ( calcium formate) , so you are adding "double dose". Too much organic carbon can affect coral health

 

[Beuchat]

Thanks Miami! So, you’d recommend dosing NeoNitro and Neophos again? I had stopped as I thought the article said not to dose while using this process on the Dinos.

Yes, In the essay we verified that while dinos are there, it is better not dose nutrients. You can resume after they are gone

 

[Joe.D]

So, since dosing All For Reef to keep calcium up, should I drop the amount of carbon dosing with your recipe? For my 350L tank (adjusted for rock) I’ve been dosing 1.6ml per day of your recipe - should I cut down to 1ml per day?

 

[Beuchat]

So, since dosing All For Reef to keep calcium up, should I drop the amount of carbon dosing with your recipe? For my 350L tank (adjusted for rock) I’ve been dosing 1.6ml per day of your recipe - should I cut down to 1ml per day?

Yes, I believe it is better

 

[Joe.D]

Yes, I believe it is better

Thanks! Will give that a shot.

 

[Dr. Jim]

My parameters are:

Nitrate .2 (Hanna)
Phosphate 0 (Hanna)


I've continued dosing All For Reef during this time. My question is, should I start dosing NeoNitro and NeoPhos again to get those numbers up?

@Beuchat - thoughts on next steps?

The carbon dosing worked very well for me. Because I have only SPS, I was afraid to let PO4 drop to zero, which it would do if I didn't dose sodium triphosphate. (NO3 never dropped below 4 otherwise I would have dosed NO3, too). I dosed PO4 every day during the treatment to keep PO4 at 0.04 - 0.08 and the dino's gradually disappeared despite doing this after about 3 weeks.

 

[Thunder_reef]

I’ve completed 4 doses of this treatment, so far no changes , but I’m hopeful it will work!!

 

[rennjidk]

Hi, bear in mind that all for reefs include organic carbon in their composition, ( calcium formate) , so you are adding "double dose". Too much organic carbon can affect coral health

I don't know why people keep repeating this. While it is true that calcium formate produces organic carbon as a byproduct, it's in a mostly unavailable source and in such small quantities that it's essentially meaningless in terms of carbon dosing.

Bacteria will metabolize it. But it probably has the least energy available from that process of any possible organic compound. So it wouldn't be especially good at driving bacterial growth, and the doses likely would be small.

 

[rennjidk]

This thread has been an interesting read. I'm not entirely convinced of the table representing the effectiveness of treatments in the initial post. As OP has already disclosed, the types of dinos in these experiments were never identified. There is a radical difference in behavior and treatment for each type of dinoflagellate. UV sterilization in particular being listed as "low" raises some concerns, as most of the carbon dosing recession of the dinos in these experiments seems to revolve around the sand bed, which leads me to believe they maybe Amphidinium (ie, large cell sand burrowing dinos). There is also the issue of drawing conclusions based on the results without actually observing the changes. You can theorize that the organic carbon is being consumed entirely during the dark period, or that a bacterial biofilm is causing the recession of the dinos, but without proper testing, it is only speculative. Not to mention the variables that are the tanks themselves. Either way I'm glad that this treatment proved effective in your test. I'd like to see some more results in a controlled environment, with some microscopic testing to see both the type of dino, and what is actually outcompeting them. Unfortunately, the majority of us are hobbyists and will never be able to conduct such an experiment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know why people keep repeating this. While it is true that calcium formate produces organic carbon as a byproduct, it's in a mostly unavailable source and in such small quantities that it's essentially meaningless in terms of carbon dosing.

That is a mischaracterization.

Formate is organic carbon and is not by any means a byproduct. It must be fully metabolized to get useful alkalinity.

A better characterization is that the useful energy from metabolizing the substantial amounts of formate present is much lower than most organics at similar doses.

 

[Thunder_reef]

I’m on my 11th dose of this treatment but it looks worse than when I started. Not sure what the issue is. Has anyone else that’s tried this had it fail? Or is too soon to say it’s failing?

 

[Joe.D]

it controlled my Dinos, but totally stressed my corals. I’ve since stopped the treatment but seem to have it under control.

I cut back my lights by a couple of hours per day, reduced the intensity and upped my nutrients for a few weeks. Since then, I’ve only had to puff the sand once a week or so with a turkey baster and let the filtration do its thing with clearing Dino’s out of the water column.

This week, I’ve raised the lights back up to previous levels. We’ll see how that goes.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

If you start treatment from a low nutrient scenario is better not to add them while carbon dosing, we did that and dinos got worst. Wait until they have been deactivated, then decrease carbon dosing and nutrient will go up again

Would it be better to get nitrates and phosphates up first before starting the carbon dosing? Here are my recent numbers

 

[Koh23]

Great read, but maybe i missed - votka as carbon dosing in this case?

Work or not?

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Week 2 update.
I'm amazed by how much the Dinos retreated in 2 weeks. As you can see in the pictures, Dinos are about 90% gone.
For week 3, I will increase the dosage from 3.4ml to 5.1ml and siphon the sandbed to physically get the remaining Dinos out.

Amazing!

Why though are you using 1.7ml, 3.4ml, 5.1ml instead of .1ml, 1ml, 1.5ml as Beuchat recommended for the DIY recipe, or are you using some other DIY recipe?

*EDIT* Oh I think you're just saying for your whole 100gallon tank, not per 100L right? So you are following just below his recipe numbers?

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Great read, but maybe i missed - votka as carbon dosing in this case?

Work or not?

Yes. Here is the recipe he gave that uses Vodka

Hi Dr. Jim, the DIY organic carbon additive is made of:

225 ml of vodka (40%)
25 ml of white vinegar
1 tea spoon of brown sugar

Dose is 0,5 ml/100 liters of aquarium water per day

Hope it helps

 

[Koh23]

Thank you, totally missed that.

But please, tell me that i can use plain white suggar, really dont want to drive to store now...

Also,.winegar is alcohol winegar, or?

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Hi, bear in mind that all for reefs include organic carbon in their composition, ( calcium formate) , so you are adding "double dose". Too much organic carbon can affect coral health

Interesting. I dose AFR every day. 300g tank I dose

27ml Part A B-Ionic - So 1ml/11gallons
27ml Part B B-Ionic - So 1ml/11gallons
27ml All For Reef - So 1ml/11gallons

Will this effect if I decide to move forward with the DIY recipe @Beuchat posted above of Vodka, White Vinegar, and Brown Sugar?

 

[stoney7713]

Thank you, totally missed that.

But please, tell me that i can use plain white suggar, really dont want to drive to store now...

Also,.winegar is alcohol winegar, or?

They are similar but not the same, I'm not sure why they use brown sugar over white. It was discussed earlier in the thread without really an answer of why one over the other.

White vinegar

 

[Joe.D]

They are similar but not the same, I'm not sure why they use brown sugar over white. It was discussed earlier in the thread without really an answer of why one over the other.

White vinegar

I just used plain white sugar. When there were discussions around brown sugar earlier in thread - I figured it could have been the “raw” sugar we see here in the states as the crystals are on the brown side, but it’s not “brown sugar” which has molasses.

Also, once I got Dinos under control, I’m now dealing with bubble algae. Pick your poison so to speak.