Dinoflagelates. A disruptive treatment

[JCTReefer]

My Results and methods.. I began carbon dosing 6 weeks ago to bring down No3 (25) and Po4 (0.25) and was dosing in the morning in my 180gal system. My carbon source is 2 parts 5% vinegar to 1 part 80 proof vodka.

I also had a dino outbreak after running out of Continuum Bacter Gen M (same as Micro bacter7). After reading this article I switched to night time dosing. My regiment is as follows:

- Nightly carbon dose of 10ml
- Morning carbon dose 4ml
- Monday 25ml Continuum Bacter Gen M (mb7)
- Tuesday blow off rocks, stir up sand then add one scoop AF Life Source
- Wednesday 25ml Continuum Bacter Clean (mbClean)
- Friday 25ml Continuum Bacter Gen MD

- Clean filter pad + socks every third day
- Skimmer 24/7
- Carbon 24/7 changed monthly
- no fuge or algae filtration
- Monthly 20% WC + vac sand

After three weeks of following the above procedure my dinos have reduced by 90+ % and have been the easiest pest I’ve ever had to deal with. After every weekly clean some dinos return the next day in much lower numbers and doesn’t really gain any ground before the next weekly clean. I have not seen a reduction in No3 which still remains at 20-25 but in the last week my Po4 has gone from ~0.25 down to ~ 0.10.

Obviously it’s not scientific to make many changes at once (4 different bacteria additives + dosing at night instead of just day) but I do believe that the competition from many bacteria strains along with dosing a carbon source at night has outcompeted my dino outbreak and cleaned up my rocks and sand dramatically in less than a month.

This is my first battle with dinos and have to say that it was not difficult but I was lucky to read this article within a week or two of them taking over my system. Sorry I wish I had before/after pics but honestly did not expect such a rapid result.

Any idea as to what type of Dinos you were dealing with??? That would be great to know. The reason I’m asking is I have been battling both Large and Small cell Amphidinium for a year now. If this method works on that type it would be a miracle.

 

[Jase4224]

@Beuchat
Only have two leather corals in the system. My sarcophytum showed no reaction but my lobophytum was closed for parts of the day for the first couple of weeks but has gotten over it. Snails unaffected.

I do have a clownfish that seems to have come down with an internal bacterial infection where his white bars have turned grey and his stomach has swelled. He’s now in QT. I do not know if this is related to my treatments but all other fish look perfect.

 

[Jase4224]

Any idea as to what type of Dinos you were dealing with??? That would be great to know. The reason I’m asking is I have been battling both Large and Small cell Amphidinium for a year now. If this method works on that type it would be a miracle.

I’m sorry I have no idea. Didn’t know I even had dinos until I read this article to be honest. I thought it was diatoms which I’ve had in the past but noticed that this time the growth was more of a mat on the sand then rock than a dust that is evenly spread. Looked at pics of dinos and panicked a bit but stuck to the regiment and got results immediately after the first clean.

 

[Heart of Dixie]

Since August 2021 I have fought two species of Dino’s, amphidinium and another type I could not identify with my ancient microscope, not the snotty kind just a layer on rocks, pumps, glass etc.) I tried everything: raise nutrients, blackouts, raise temperature, add diversity of bacteria, shortened lights time, cut off white lights, ad infinitum with some success however they always came back laughing at me louder each time. Out of total frustration, ready to throw in the towel 2 weeks ago I re-started my refugium with an Indo-Pacific starter package, commenced micro bubble scrubbing and dosing 6ml vinegar at night. Within a few days the results began with the sand clearing and the skimmer producing real dark green skim-mate in copious amounts.
My final step was the vinegar dosing which began 9 days ago. I have no idea if it was a combination of the 3 or just one, but the tank is looking better than it has in over a year.
Sorry no pictures for I was not expecting results.
150 gallon mixed reef tank, Lifereef skimmer, sump and refugium.

 

[Dr. Jim]

@Beuchat, Thank you for presenting this interesting information! I recently started a new tank and have what I believe are a species of Osreopsis and am starting carbon dosing with RS NO3-O4-X. I know you said not to dose PO4 or NO3 if it bottoms out but I will have a hard time not doing that. I have about a 100 SPS frags in this tank and don't want those two compounds to bottom out. (I'm wondering if when you suggested not dosing them, were you not considering that for a SPS-dominant tank?)

Here is a picture and a video of the dinos.

The dino's started creeping up about 10 days ago. I dosed KZ Start (1.6 ml) for 2 days (in 200 gal system) starting 3 nights ago while waiting for RS NO3-PO4-X to arrive. I dosed 7 ml (RS) last night and will do the same tonight. After the first dose, I noticed the NO3 drop to 1.3 (from the usual 2-5) which is the lowest I've seen. (Note: these values were from Hanna checker; Salifert usually shows about 1.5 X the Hanna readings). Phosphates seem unaffected so far.
Red Sea claims that their product usually affects NO3 more than PO4 so NO3 should be closely monitored. (But I'm more concerned with PO4 zeroing out.)

I plan to check PO4 and NO3 twice a day and supplement if needed.

ABOUT MY SYSTEM:

I.M. 170 Ext with 60 gal Frag Tank in series; both bare-bottom; 4' x 2' eggcrate on top of rocks. All frags on 2x2" tiles.
Tank was set up 3 weeks ago. All livestock and most of rock came from a temporary 60 gal frag tank system. (I recently moved). Lot of fish. Feed 3x/day (frozen concoction and flakes); Dose elements daily, mostly KZ.

-Phosphates have been steady around 0.05 - 0.08 with the exception of a few zeros in past week; dosed PO4 a couple of times when needed.
-Nitrates: 2 - 5

50 lbs KP Rock obtained about 5 mo ago and used in another system since (with no dinos).
20 lbs Australian Rock from Unique Corals (obtained 2 mo ago); 10 lbs LiveRockNReef (obtained 1 year ago);
48 lbs Walt Smith Fiji rock (obtained 3 mo ago); 25 lbs LiveGulfRock (obtained 3 mo ago).

-Sump with Octo Regal 8" Internal Skimmer, Roller Mat; Varios-4 and Varios-6 pumps
- 3 Halides (250W) and 8 XR-15 G6 Blue (Main Tank)
-2 XR15's over Frag tank; (more will be added)
-(DSB/Algae Filter, 20gal, is temporarily offline while investigating cause of ICP high Ni)
-Kalk stirrer
-GHL Controller System
-FLOW: a lot from two returns; MP40; OctoPulse 4; Tunze wavemaker; another powerhead.....forget name.

 

[Beuchat]

I'm wondering if when you suggested not dosing them, were you not considering that for a SPS-dominant tank?)

Hi Jim,

Decreasing nutrients levels does not help too much to eradicate dinos. Increase them is probably not a good idea, but if that goes in parallel with carbon dosing, and specifically to avoid nutrient depletion for corals, it makes sense. This treatment works because of the allelopathic interactions between heterotrophic bacteria an dinos, so nutrients levels has a limited influence.

 

[Jase4224]

Hi Jim,

Decreasing nutrients levels does not help too much to eradicate dinos. Increase them is probably not a good idea, but if that goes in parallel with carbon dosing, and specifically to avoid nutrient depletion for corals, it makes sense. This treatment works because of the allelopathic interactions between heterotrophic bacteria an dinos, so nutrients levels has a limited influence.

Makes sense that the bacteria are attacking the dinos because I’ve been adding bacteria and dosing carbon at night and my No3 and Po4 haven’t changed much. However the dinos are down to barely there.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Makes sense that the bacteria are attacking the dinos because I’ve been adding bacteria and dosing carbon at night and my No3 and Po4 haven’t changed much. However the dinos are down to barely there.

I've dosed KZ START for the first 2 days, then RS NO3-PO4-X (7 ml; 200 gal) for 3 days and am definitely seeing an improvement with the dinos. I still have a long way to go but the dinos are definitely decreasing. The PO4 were zero and NO4 dropped to 1.1 this morning (Hanna for both). I am dosing a little phosphate and nitrate to keep them around 0.03 and 3 at least. Out of 100 SPS frags, only a JF Highlighter lost some color during these past 5 days of dosing.

 

[Jase4224]

I've dosed KZ START for the first 2 days, then RS NO3-PO4-X (7 ml; 200 gal) for 3 days and am definitely seeing an improvement with the dinos. I still have a long way to go but the dinos are definitely decreasing. The PO4 were zero and NO4 dropped to 1.1 this morning (Hanna for both). I am dosing a little phosphate and nitrate to keep them around 0.03 and 3 at least. Out of 100 SPS frags, only a JF Highlighter lost some color during these past 5 days of dosing.

Sounds promising so far. Have you tried blowing the dinos off the rocks and sand (big clean)? I found that after every (weekly) big clean the dinos would come back a bit but only about 20% of what they were before the clean, for the whole week.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Sounds promising so far. Have you tried blowing the dinos off the rocks and sand (big clean)? I found that after every (weekly) big clean the dinos would come back a bit but only about 20% of what they were before the clean, for the whole week.

The dinos are too firmly attached to siphon or blow them off. When they were at their worst, with bubbly, slimey strands, siphoning did help a little. (I have no sand in the tank, only a separate 20 gal DSB/Algae Filter). The only annoying areas of dinos are on the tiles and eggcrate. I'm on day 6 of carbon dosing and I would say there is about 60% improvement back to normal already!

Here are pics of the tank today. (Unfortunately, I don't have any from before I started carbon dosing):

Close-up of tiles and eggcrate:

Every couple of weeks I would scrape the tiles with a knife to remove the dinos. Fortunately, my wife would help with that.....she loves the smell!

I just got a bunch of Nerites snails which seem to help a little. (Note the whitish areas on 3 of the tiles).

 

[Beuchat]

Hi,

Just to provide an update. It appears that carbon sources containing glucose (sugar) are more effective. We have found faster recession of dinos using traditional vodka+vinegar+sugar and Xepta NP, than Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X.

​

 

[sixty_reefer]

Hi,

Just to provide an update. It appears that carbon sources containing glucose (sugar) are more effective. We have found faster recession of dinos using traditional vodka+vinegar+sugar and Xepta NP, than Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X.

​

That’s good to hear, is your testing still ongoing?

 

[Miami Reef]

Hi,

Just to provide an update. It appears that carbon sources containing glucose (sugar) are more effective. We have found faster recession of dinos using traditional vodka+vinegar+sugar and Xepta NP, than Red Sea NO3 : PO4-X.

​

Glucose is known as dextrose. But yes, that is a sugar.

 

[Miami Reef]

We have found faster recession of dinos using traditional vodka+vinegar+sugar

I purchased dextrose which is glucose. (Granular form)

What is the recipe of vodka:vinegar:glucose?

 

[Beuchat]

That’s good to hear, is your testing still ongoing?

No, but some other colleagues are also testing this method in their tanks

 

[Dr. Jim]

What is the recipe of vodka:vinegar:glucose?

Septa NP apparently isn't readily available in the USA so I, too, am wondering what the proper ratio should be for vodka:vinegar;glucose.

My dino problem seemed to respond quickly and improve by about 50% in just a few days with RS NO3-PO4 X but then it came to a standstill. I know after the first week it is recommended to double the dosage but I've been a little reluctant to do so. Now that @Beuchat is saying the Red Sea product may not be as effective as a product with glucose, I'd like to try the "homemade" vodka/vinegar/glucose solution if I can find out the proper amounts.

Thanks for helping!

 

[Beuchat]

Hi Dr. Jim, the DIY organic carbon additive is made of:

225 ml of vodka (40%)
25 ml of white vinegar
1 tea spoon of brown sugar

Dose is 0,5 ml/100 liters of aquarium water per day

Hope it helps

 

[Beuchat]

Hi,

An update showing the progression in another aquarium using Xepta NP-Out (methanol, acetic acid, toluene, glucose ) for dino erradication:

We were discussing the method in youtube (sorry , for Spanish speakers)



BR

 

[Dr. Jim]

@Beuchat, Thank you for presenting this interesting information! I recently started a new tank and have what I believe are a species of Osreopsis and am starting carbon dosing with RS NO3-O4-X. I know you said not to dose PO4 or NO3 if it bottoms out but I will have a hard time not doing that. I have about a 100 SPS frags in this tank and don't want those two compounds to bottom out. (I'm wondering if when you suggested not dosing them, were you not considering that for a SPS-dominant tank?)

Here is a picture and a video of the dinos.

The dino's started creeping up about 10 days ago. I dosed KZ Start (1.6 ml) for 2 days (in 200 gal system) starting 3 nights ago while waiting for RS NO3-PO4-X to arrive. I dosed 7 ml (RS) last night and will do the same tonight. After the first dose, I noticed the NO3 drop to 1.3 (from the usual 2-5) which is the lowest I've seen. (Note: these values were from Hanna checker; Salifert usually shows about 1.5 X the Hanna readings). Phosphates seem unaffected so far.
Red Sea claims that their product usually affects NO3 more than PO4 so NO3 should be closely monitored. (But I'm more concerned with PO4 zeroing out.)

I plan to check PO4 and NO3 twice a day and supplement if needed.

ABOUT MY SYSTEM:

I.M. 170 Ext with 60 gal Frag Tank in series; both bare-bottom; 4' x 2' eggcrate on top of rocks. All frags on 2x2" tiles.
Tank was set up 3 weeks ago. All livestock and most of rock came from a temporary 60 gal frag tank system. (I recently moved). Lot of fish. Feed 3x/day (frozen concoction and flakes); Dose elements daily, mostly KZ.

-Phosphates have been steady around 0.05 - 0.08 with the exception of a few zeros in past week; dosed PO4 a couple of times when needed.
-Nitrates: 2 - 5

50 lbs KP Rock obtained about 5 mo ago and used in another system since (with no dinos).
20 lbs Australian Rock from Unique Corals (obtained 2 mo ago); 10 lbs LiveRockNReef (obtained 1 year ago);
48 lbs Walt Smith Fiji rock (obtained 3 mo ago); 25 lbs LiveGulfRock (obtained 3 mo ago).

-Sump with Octo Regal 8" Internal Skimmer, Roller Mat; Varios-4 and Varios-6 pumps
- 3 Halides (250W) and 8 XR-15 G6 Blue (Main Tank)
-2 XR15's over Frag tank; (more will be added)
-(DSB/Algae Filter, 20gal, is temporarily offline while investigating cause of ICP high Ni)
-Kalk stirrer
-GHL Controller System
-FLOW: a lot from two returns; MP40; OctoPulse 4; Tunze wavemaker; another powerhead.....forget name.

UPDATE: Day 29 of Treatment

To recap, I saw a significant improvement after only 5 days of dosing RS NO3-PO4-X, but then progress stalled. I did not increase the dosage after the first week, though, as was recommended.

Eight days ago, I added about 2/3 tsp of cane sugar to about 400 ml of the RS product and increased the dosage from 7 ml (at night) to 8 ml. (I didn't have brown sugar on hand). Two days ago, I saw a significant die-off of the dinos. I have all my SPS frags on 2"x2" tiles and observed the amount of dino's on these tiles as an indicator. These tiles are practically clean now. I will probably start reducing the dosing at this point. Of course, this wasn't a controlled experiment so I don't know it the dino's would have just disappeared on their own, but I strongly suspect that the carbon dosing, especially with the added sugar, is responsible.

The NO3 only bottomed out (zero) on one day at which time I dosed some NO3.
The PO4, however, bottomed out many times despite dosing every hour (about 0.05 ppm per day, divided). The range over the entire 4 weeks was between zero and 0.09, with most tests in the 0.03 range or less.

I will mention that I started an activated carbon reactor in hopes of removing toxins from the dinos during the treatment period. (I rarely use carbon).

My only dilemma going forward is whether or not I should continue carbon-dosing long term to maintain a good bacterial population, and if so, how much? (I'm thinking I may dose just 1 ml per night in the 200 gal system). At some point, I will probably send out a sample to Triton for a NDOC test.

I am very happy about learning about this idea of carbon dosing to get rid of dino's and am very grateful to @Beuchat for presenting this concept!

 

[Beuchat]

UPDATE: Day 29 of Treatment

To recap, I saw a significant improvement after only 5 days of dosing RS NO3-PO4-X, but then progress stalled. I did not increase the dosage after the first week, though, as was recommended.

Eight days ago, I added about 2/3 tsp of cane sugar to about 400 ml of the RS product and increased the dosage from 7 ml (at night) to 8 ml. (I didn't have brown sugar on hand). Two days ago, I saw a significant die-off of the dinos. I have all my SPS frags on 2"x2" tiles and observed the amount of dino's on these tiles as an indicator. These tiles are practically clean now. I will probably start reducing the dosing at this point. Of course, this wasn't a controlled experiment so I don't know it the dino's would have just disappeared on their own, but I strongly suspect that the carbon dosing, especially with the added sugar, is responsible.

The NO3 only bottomed out (zero) on one day at which time I dosed some NO3.
The PO4, however, bottomed out many times despite dosing every hour (about 0.05 ppm per day, divided). The range over the entire 4 weeks was between zero and 0.09, with most tests in the 0.03 range or less.

I will mention that I started an activated carbon reactor in hopes of removing toxins from the dinos during the treatment period. (I rarely use carbon).

My only dilemma going forward is whether or not I should continue carbon-dosing long term to maintain a good bacterial population, and if so, how much? (I'm thinking I may dose just 1 ml per night in the 200 gal system). At some point, I will probably send out a sample to Triton for a NDOC test.

I am very happy about learning about this idea of carbon dosing to get rid of dino's and am very grateful to @Beuchat for presenting this concept!

Hi Dr.Jim

I am glad to know your dinos has backed off. I believe it is good idea to have a long term maintenance dosis, of course, not as much as during treatment. This continuous dosing will balance the nutrient recycling mechanism of your tank from algae to bacteria.