Dino X working in reverse

[DeeBee]

Hello. I am in desperate need of guidance. I am currently on day 7 of using Dino X (so have applied 3 doses so far) and wake up to find that the dinoflagellates have actually increased significantly after each use. Prior to the dosing the dinos had basically stayed at the sames levels for four months - post dosing I am having a bloom of them.

I did remove all inverts prior to the regimen so there would be no nutrient spikes if there was dieoff and I haven't been dosing anything other than Cal/Alk/Mg. My lighting cycle is currently around 5.5 hours of full lighting all the rest actinic - T5.

Is this something common during the treatment before they start dieing? I have to assume not since a lot of folks report a significant reduction by the third dose. By the way I am not getting an increase of algea on the glass or elsewhere - just the dinos.

I have faith that this product works but something is definitely awry. I appreciate your help.

 

[Fauna Marin]

Hi DeeBee,

There are different types of Dino that can grow in a reef tank. The most effective method for identifying the type is using a microscope. Since many Reefers to do not have a microscope available to them, identifying Dino can be tricky. Each type can react differently to Dino X, but in the end, it will remove dino.

How are the corals responding to the treatment?

 

[DeeBee]

Hi DeeBee,

There are different types of Dino that can grow in a reef tank. The most effective method for identifying the type is using a microscope. Since many Reefers to do not have a microscope available to them, identifying Dino can be tricky. Each type can react differently to Dino X, but in the end, it will remove dino.

How are the corals responding to the treatment?

The corals (mostly LPS - Undata and Digitata the only SPS) have had no negative response to the treatment so far. Tonight I will be adding the forth dose.

Okay, I will hang in there and continue the regimen. I will also provide an update in a couple days of any changes. Thanks for the response.

 

[craigcolbert]

How have you got on? I have started dosing and have not seen any real changes.... However I want rid of gha and bryopsis too.... Can I continue to dose nopox?

 

[Montireef]

Dino X is not effective against all species of dinoflagellates. An example is ostreopsis, which is a very common and toxic dinoflagellate.

Check with a microscope, it's very easy to id.

 

[DeeBee]

How have you got on? I have started dosing and have not seen any real changes.... However I want rid of gha and bryopsis too.... Can I continue to dose nopox?

Dino X is not effective against all species of dinoflagellates. An example is ostreopsis, which is a very common and toxic dinoflagellate.

Check with a microscope, it's very easy to id.

Well, I am 13 days and 6 doses in and it continues to get exponentially worse. These dinos are a very thick, super dense mat of goo. I have included some pics - I apologize for them being a little fuzzy.

I tested my phosphates with Hanna digital meter and it showed 0.00 So no direct nutrients feeding it although my rock certainly could be.

I fully agree on the microscope - I am trying to find an inexpensive one to buy or one to borrow. I have read the numerous posts on other boards including the research by user Pants when he was taking samples. Sounds like Ostreopsis is one bad species and potentially dangerous.

 

[craigcolbert]

Hmmm might be worth trying nopox at 0.1ml per 100l to help remove nitrate and phos from the rock... What is your lighting schedule?

 

[miyags]

Wow that looks different from what I have. That looks almost like sponges.

 

[DeeBee]

Wow that looks different from what I have. That looks almost like sponges.

Yep, it is odd. Before using DinoX it had the traditional stringy, bubbly look. Once I started treating it got thick. That's ultimately why I need to get it under a microscope.

 

[Fauna Marin]

That does look strange. Have you double checked the TDS coming out of your RO/DI unit? It's tough to tell how much nutrients are binded up inside the rock so it is very probable that it is fueling the growth. Getting your hands on a microscope will help you out.

I wouldn't recommend adding NOPOX to the treatment as it may cause an adverse reaction which can result in coral loss.

 

[spotlessaqua]

I had a client using collected rain water from there roof as top off water without telling me so..... Looks like about the same reaction! Solution was pulling and pressure washing rock then a bath in r.o. Water a couple times soaking and rinsing. This was a quick aesthetic fix I then used tri-carbon and purigen for 2 weeks. Looking better now but aptasia popped up so that's fun. Dirty source water brings dirty problems

 

[DeeBee]

That does look strange. Have you double checked the TDS coming out of your RO/DI unit? It's tough to tell how much nutrients are binded up inside the rock so it is very probable that it is fueling the growth. Getting your hands on a microscope will help you out.

I wouldn't recommend adding NOPOX to the treatment as it may cause an adverse reaction which can result in coral loss.

Water is 35ppm at the tap, 4ppm out the RO and 0ppm out the DI canister. Phosphates read 0.0 and nitrates are generally very low. No intention of using NoPOX although I do use Prodibio BioDigest. I only have to clean my glass about every 6 days.

Wish I took pics of it before it "mutated" into this thicker variant. I will update the thread with microscope pics once I am able to do so.

 

[scardall]

Curious? Why haven't you used a small stiff brush to all that unwanted mess?

 

[Montireef]

Those are dinoflagellates for sure, maybe not only of one kind. That weird snotty dough might be due to the use of Dino X as dinoflagellates secrete mucilage in different quantities depending on how "happy" they are; they sometimes develop cysts before they die.

@craigcolbert: NOPOX to a dino bloom is like petrol to a a bonfire.
@scardall: You don't want to brush all that stuff and spread the problem.

Please, be careful with those pieces of advice that make things worse.


I have dealt with dinoflagellates many times and for so long, these are my conclusions:

- The first thing you have to do is identify the dinoflagellate species. Products like DinoX, Dinoxal...do not always work and won't work for many of the species of dino that are quite common, such as ostreopsis and gambierdiscus. It does work again amphidinium (but for that species also works a 5-days balckout. These products will decimate many small critters and which is worse, it will take long to clean those chemicals from the aquarium. So, id the dinoflagellates species and then decide if you use it or not. Fauna Marin and all other manufacturers SHOULD indicate that DinoX won't work with many of the dinoflagellates species, their advertising is not clear and is not true.
- Do not blow or wipe the snotty stuff, pumps running at a minimum. The wort thing you can do is spread the stuff away.
- Vacuum all the snot through a filter sock, every day. You'd better pick a 50 micron (or less) filter because dinoflagellates range from 10 to 100 microns (ostreopsis is a big one and amphidinium is smaller)
- Stop the skimmer. This is very important, two or three days after stopping it you will notice an important decrease in dinoflagellates.
- Increase feedings, use frozen food. This will encourage emergence of pods which do guzzle dinoflagellates and will prevent them to come back.
- Do not make any water changes. Dinoflagellates love new clean water and that is something that triggers their breeding.


I have fought ostreopsis and amphidinium for so long... these is what has worked for me:

- Parvilucifera sinensis inoculation. This is a natural parasite of many kind of dinos. It works great, the problem is with those species that develop cysts: they come back after a few weeks or months.

- Oxyrrhis marina. This is a heterotrophic tiny dinoflagellate that will devour any other dinoflagellate, and some other small critters (ie ciliates and nematodes). After it's use you will notice a yellowish biofilm on the walls and rocks that is quickly eaten by snails and some fish. Same problem: dinoflagellates make cysts and may come back after some weeks (but if you feed the tank with phytoplankton or frozen foods you can keep oxyrrhis marina, and dinoflagellates in check...for ever.). Check this video: http://blog.coralwonders.com/en/en-una-gota-de-agua-2a-parte/

- The "dirty method". This is what has best worked for my and for many others. Stop skimmer, vacuum clean and feed frozen foods (don't rinse) and slowly take your NO3 and PO4 up (just NO3 to 0,2 and PO4 to 0,03 ppm). In about one/two weeks dinos are gone and you will have tons of pods that will eat even cysts.

I would share parvilucifera and oxyrrhis to any one that wants to try, but I live in Europe and I presume you are in the States.

 

[Montireef]

Just add one more thing:

Dinoflagellates have two stages:
- Attached to the sand and rocks at daytime
- Free swimming at night.

Installing an UV germicide and (important) switching it by night helps fighting any dinoflagellate outbreak but won't solve the problem.

 

[DeeBee]

@Montireef - Thank you for the thorough write-up on your experience with battling Dinoflagellates. I like that you have taken a very different approach to battling Dinos versus the standard lights out and H2O2. Yes, I do live in the states so unfortunately I won't be able to get parvilucifera and oxyrrhis cultures from you.

I am ordering a microscope today so should have it by this weekend and will post the results for everyone's feedback. If it ends up being a breed that Algea X/Dino X isn't effective against then I will try your approach. I have an old UV filter that I used in my freshwater tank that I can run at night.

To Fauna Marin's credit I have read many success stories with their product but it sounds like identification is key.

 

[Montireef]

Hi DeeBee,

I am quite sure you have an ostreopsis outbreak, there is no commercial cure for this species and is becoming quite common. You can try something very easy: vacuum clean as much as you want and switch off your skimmer for two or three days, I have found this to be very useful, these dinos stop thriving when the skimmer is off (I don't know why, but it has worked for me and others many times). Set pumps to a minimum as well.

Regarding Fauna Marin, I must admit that this company develops hight quality products, but they should not sell Dino-X as an ultimate treatment for dinoflagellates. If I know that it only works with only some of them, they also know it. That's for sure and that makes me think that their advertising policies are incorrect. They should state something like "gets rid of amphidinium, prorocentrum...dinoflagellates"

Anyway, it is very important you identify those dinos, try to post a picture or a video (their movement patterns helps identifying them)

There is another product that works far better with ostreopsis: Kordon itch-attack, it has naphtoquinones and really makes them vanish (but if you don't foster micro-live such as ciliates, copepods...they will eventually come back). This product is not specifically designed for autotrophic dinoflagellates, but helps a lot)

 

[DeeBee]

@Montireef @Fauna Marin These aren't the greatest pics as I am still getting the hang of using the microscope and taking photos but hopefully you can identify what these are. There is no motion from them so I didn't bother with a video. Thanks.

 

[Montireef]

It is not ostreopsis, lucky you!
It is not amphidinum, unlucky you!

It might be gambierdiscus, but not sure. Need to know its size and see it moving. It might be many other species of dinoflagellates, there are so many and I only know a few of them.

Is it toxic, have you found dead snails?

 

[DeeBee]

It is not ostreopsis, lucky you!
It is not amphidinum, unlucky you!

It might be gambierdiscus, but not sure. Need to know its size and see it moving. It might be many other species of dinoflagellates, there are so many and I only know a few of them.

Is it toxic, have you found dead snails?

Hi Montireef. I removed most of my snails and shrimp when I started dosing Dino X but did have a straggler or two. Those guys are still alive so guessing it isn't toxic - or maybe just mildly toxic. It is reassuring to know that it isn't Ostreopsis.

I looked at numerous samples under the microscope and none of them had movement. Could this indicate they are in the cyst stage? I have no idea how to tell you the size - the first two pics were at 100X and the last two were at 400X if that helps.