Dang ich. Should i medicate with Copper or TTM

[Jay Hemdal]

Well guys I appreciate all the advice and im still going to go forward with getting all the fish into a quarantine system to get treated with copper. Sadly my little guy was gone when I got home from work today. I really appreciate all the advice and im going to take this as a learning lesson and change things up as I go forward and introduce fish into my tanks.

Sorry to see - but my concern is that this fish didn't die from ich, something else happened to it. The picture from this morning showed a mild case. A fish like that should have had days before succumbing to that parasite.

I've seen ich combined with velvet - the fish show just a few spots, but they breath really fast and then they die.

Another really common issue is cyanide poisoning. These little blue tangs live in heads of Acropora coral. The only way to catch them in commercial numbers is to either break up the whole head of coral, or squirt cyanide into the coral head to drive them out. The trouble is, about 40% of those fish end up dying a few weeks after collection.

Jay

 

[Tonycass12]

Sorry to see - but my concern is that this fish didn't die from ich, something else happened to it. The picture from this morning showed a mild case. A fish like that should have had days before succumbing to that parasite.

I've seen ich combined with velvet - the fish show just a few spots, but they breath really fast and then they die.

Another really common issue is cyanide poisoning. These little blue tangs live in heads of Acropora coral. The only way to catch them in commercial numbers is to either break up the whole head of coral, or squirt cyanide into the coral head to drive them out. The trouble is, about 40% of those fish end up dying a few weeks after collection.

Jay

My LFS still has a few i saw today. Stopped on the way home to grab some nori and saw them again. Couldn't say for sure if I noticed any heavy breathing. But you did at least explain why he kept bedding down where he did.

 

[Tonycass12]

@Jay Hemdal just wondering your opinion on this. Do you think its worth trying to grab another hippo if im throwing him right into copper with the fish i currently have or just too much to risk? Was thinking about this late last night if everyone is going into copper this weekend why not toss another hippo in with them. Would this mitigate the risk if my other fish are carrying itch or velvet(i think its unlikely they have velvet i would have seen losses or some sign before all this.). Or would i still be better off getting all my current fish and tanks clean before trying again. Just not sure if I would still be risking spreading anything if all the fish are in a system dosed with copper.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal just wondering your opinion on this. Do you think its worth trying to grab another hippo if im throwing him right into copper with the fish i currently have or just too much to risk? Was thinking about this late last night if everyone is going into copper this weekend why not toss another hippo in with them. Would this mitigate the risk if my other fish are carrying itch or velvet(i think its unlikely they have velvet i would have seen losses or some sign before all this.). Or would i still be better off getting all my current fish and tanks clean before trying again. Just not sure if I would still be risking spreading anything if all the fish are in a system dosed with copper.

You can put hepatus tangs right into copper - dealers do that all of the time. However, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of these tiny tangs. In addition to the cyanide issue, they are starved going through the supply chain, and sometimes, even though they start feeding o.k., they have digested their livers to the point that they cannot recover.

Does your dealer know the source of these tangs, what country they came from? If E. Africa or Sri Lanka, they would be sturdier than if from Indonesia or the Philippines.

Another thing with really small tangs - be sure to match your QT salinity with that of the store's - especially if your tank is higher than the store's. It is difficult to acclimate these small fish up in salinity.

Jay

 

[Tonycass12]

You can put hepatus tangs right into copper - dealers do that all of the time. However, as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of these tiny tangs. In addition to the cyanide issue, they are starved going through the supply chain, and sometimes, even though they start feeding o.k., they have digested their livers to the point that they cannot recover.

Does your dealer know the source of these tangs, what country they came from? If E. Africa or Sri Lanka, they would be sturdier than if from Indonesia or the Philippines.

Another thing with really small tangs - be sure to match your QT salinity with that of the store's - especially if your tank is higher than the store's. It is difficult to acclimate these small fish up in salinity.

Jay

Thanks Jay, not sure the location they came from ill have to ask next time I'm in the store. Sounds like I'm better off waiting or getting my local shop to order one a little bigger. Ill hold off on getting another or at least wait another month and if the ones my local shop has stick around maybe give it another shot since I would hope that additional time would mean improved health. But we will see.

Much appreciated that you take the time to give out your advice Jay, cheers!

 

[Tonycass12]

Just a little update after visiting my local shop again. The shop is Aqualations in Traverse city MI. The owner Kevin was supper bummed to hear about the hippo tang. The day it passed I stopped in to grab some nori and explain what was going on, I hadn't been back to the shop until today. He mentioned a certification from the company he got the hippos from and I cant for the life of me remember what it was but he was very skeptical that with that cert they were collected with any methods like cyanide to flush them from corals. He had also lost 3 of the hippos he still had in the shop. I know that no matter what the customer takes on the risk when they purchase something and take it home so I was in no way expecting Kevin to do anything about the loss. I shared with him what I learned here and told him I'm going to hold out for a larger fish down the road. He told me if anything caught my eye to let him know he wanted to make up for some of the cost even though I dont blame any of this on him. Ended up grabbing some more snails for my frag tank and told him I was going to take home a maricultured acro colony from Bali that he has had for a couple months now. He surprised me at the register and dropped the price on the acro from 220$ to 75$! He dropped the price for almost as much as I paid for the hippo! I guess this is one of the many reasons its good to build a relationship with your local shop owner especially when the next shop is 2 hrs away. Still blown away that he went out of the way and gave me this deal when he didn't have to but at least this story gets to end on a happier note after loosing that fish. Going to be bringing Kevin some free frags from some of the colonies he's sold me to help recoup any losses because I don't like anyone to take a hit like that and I want to support my local shop.

Again thanks for the advice everyone and happy reefing. Ill be spending the weekend trying to catch all my fish to get them into copper and prepare for future additions, cheers!

 

[Spare time]

Just looking for some advice here. All the fish I've added up until now have been pretty hardy fish so this haven't been a problem up until now. I picked up a hippo tang over the weekend and he's developed white spots over the last two days that im 98% sure are itch.

I'm already settled that pulling and treating all my fish and keeping the tank fish free for 45 days is going to be the only fix. Sucks because I have a lot of sps in my main tank and ripping apart the rocks to get all the fish is going to be a pain. Bright side at least ill get 3 adult orange line chromis who have become monsters out of the system for good.

Now only thing I cant decide is TTM or Copper to treat them. I don't have experience with either method and I like that I won't have to constantly test and dose to keep copper at the proper levels with TTM. The bad side of TTM will be the investment in more gear (tanks/totes and power filters) i dont mind that ill have to have freshly mixes sw on hand because I've got a decent size mixing station.

Just want some advice or experiences on these methods to help me decide what route to tank

Fish that will be pulled from the tank are-
-baby hippo tang 1.5"
-clown goby
-2 6 line wrasse 1 from my main display the other from my frag system
-2 lawnmower blennies
-clownfish

I have 4 orange line chromis but they are evil and will be removed for good when I catch them so I dont have to worry about aggression in QT systems. Same species fish will be separated by devider to hopefully keep things peaceful.


I really hope this hippo pulls through im going to give him a FW dip this afternoon to help with some of the stress from the itch its already got on him. None of my other fish show any signs of itch if you zoom on this image i took last night you can see the white dots starting just behind and above its eye.

TTM is stressful, a lot of work, and only effective for ich. I'm tired of hearing copper is stressful and should be a last resort. Most copper issues come from old copper methods with citric acid in it. Just do copper and let the fish relax rather than mimicking a predation event every transfer, causing unnecessary stress

 

[Tonycass12]

TTM is stressful, a lot of work, and only effective for ich. I'm tired of hearing copper is stressful and should be a last resort. Most copper issues come from old copper methods with citric acid in it. Just do copper and let the fish relax rather than mimicking a predation event every transfer, causing unnecessary stress

See post before yours. My plan is to do copper on all my livestock now and go fish free in my system for 60 days.

 

[Spare time]

See post before yours. My plan is to do copper on all my livestock now and go fish free in my system for 60 days.

Haha I just had to make a rant.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just a little update after visiting my local shop again. The shop is Aqualations in Traverse city MI. The owner Kevin was supper bummed to hear about the hippo tang. The day it passed I stopped in to grab some nori and explain what was going on, I hadn't been back to the shop until today. He mentioned a certification from the company he got the hippos from and I cant for the life of me remember what it was but he was very skeptical that with that cert they were collected with any methods like cyanide to flush them from corals. He had also lost 3 of the hippos he still had in the shop. I know that no matter what the customer takes on the risk when they purchase something and take it home so I was in no way expecting Kevin to do anything about the loss. I shared with him what I learned here and told him I'm going to hold out for a larger fish down the road. He told me if anything caught my eye to let him know he wanted to make up for some of the cost even though I dont blame any of this on him. Ended up grabbing some more snails for my frag tank and told him I was going to take home a maricultured acro colony from Bali that he has had for a couple months now. He surprised me at the register and dropped the price on the acro from 220$ to 75$! He dropped the price for almost as much as I paid for the hippo! I guess this is one of the many reasons its good to build a relationship with your local shop owner especially when the next shop is 2 hrs away. Still blown away that he went out of the way and gave me this deal when he didn't have to but at least this story gets to end on a happier note after loosing that fish. Going to be bringing Kevin some free frags from some of the colonies he's sold me to help recoup any losses because I don't like anyone to take a hit like that and I want to support my local shop.

Again thanks for the advice everyone and happy reefing. Ill be spending the weekend trying to catch all my fish to get them into copper and prepare for future additions, cheers!

There is a firm in Indonesia that grows out larval hepatus tangs. I think it is called the Linini foundation (spelling?). They are the one source of tiny hepatus that are more sustainable (except fully tank raised of course). If these fish had some sort of certificate, I’m guessing that’s what they were. Still, baby fish of any type are delicate and tough to ship,
Sounds like your store is a good one, always support your LFS if they are good!
Jay