Current Quarantine Protocol

[LeftyReefer]

Is there an upper limit to safe copper safe/copper power dosing?

I dosed my QT up to 2.66 ppm copper power... is that too high or OK?
All fish have been completely fine and all eating and acting normal...

Wondering if I should just leave it there since all inhabitants are tolerating it well, or if I should lower it down to 2.5ppm like the bottle states.

 

[MTM]

It has been suggested to keep a biowheel in the dt sump so that when a qt is needed, the biowheel can be put on a hob of that tank and it's ready to go. But what happens when the qt is no longer needed? Doesn't seem like a good idea to put the biowheel back into the dt.

 

[ctopherl]

It has been suggested to keep a biowheel in the dt sump so that when a qt is needed, the biowheel can be put on a hob of that tank and it's ready to go. But what happens when the qt is no longer needed? Doesn't seem like a good idea to put the biowheel back into the dt.

Can always sterilize it, completely dry it out and then put it back in tank.

Or just buy cheap biomedia and throw it out after use.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, question for you, let's say my QT tank is drained and empty and today I go out to my LFS and buy a new fish. How do I go about getting the QT tank quickly up and running?

I don't recommend doing that - managing ammonia levels in a brand new QT is very tricky. I always have a QT up and running at all times.

In an emergency, like if your fish fall ill and need to be moved out of the DT, if you can move some sort of biofilter with them, that helps. If not, then you can attempt an "instant tank" using bacteria in a bottle, like Dr. Tim's.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It has been suggested to keep a biowheel in the dt sump so that when a qt is needed, the biowheel can be put on a hob of that tank and it's ready to go. But what happens when the qt is no longer needed? Doesn't seem like a good idea to put the biowheel back into the dt.

Think about this - if you move fish from your QT to your DT at the end of a quarantine cycle, moving the biowheel back will not add anything to your DT that the fish themselves didn't already bring with them. There is simply no need to sterilize the biowheel, or any other item being moved from the QT to the DT. The key here is never release fish from quarantine unless you are confident they are as "clean" as the process will allow.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is there an upper limit to safe copper safe/copper power dosing?

I dosed my QT up to 2.66 ppm copper power... is that too high or OK?
All fish have been completely fine and all eating and acting normal...

Wondering if I should just leave it there since all inhabitants are tolerating it well, or if I should lower it down to 2.5ppm like the bottle states.

To some extent, it depends of the species of fish you have in the QT. I presume you are testing with the high range Hanna Checker? I know people who have run copper power that high, but I'm a firm believer in following label directions, so I would reduce the copper to 2.5 ppm. No lower though, as breakthrough disease cases have been seen at slightly below normal copper power doses.

Jay

 

[threebuoys]

I don't recommend doing that - managing ammonia levels in a brand new QT is very tricky. I always have a QT up and running at all times.

In an emergency, like if your fish fall ill and need to be moved out of the DT, if you can move some sort of biofilter with them, that helps. If not, then you can attempt an "instant tank" using bacteria in a bottle, like Dr. Tim's.

Jay

If you do attempt a quick start QT, you need a good ammonia test kit (not API) and you will need to check it daily. Often, the bacteria in a bottle products take several days to become effective, during which ammonia can rise to fairly high levels (depending on the amount of ammonia sources, AKA food, you are supplying). If you find you need to do a water change to reduce the ammonia level, you will need to add copper to the water added to maintain your target.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Hey Jay, the bottle of Cupramine instructs to bring to full dose over 48 hours, then hold there for two weeks. I see your protocol holds these levels for 30 days. Is that a byproduct of the different type of copper treatment being used? Is 2 weeks instructed on the label not adequate?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay, the bottle of Cupramine instructs to bring to full dose over 48 hours, then hold there for two weeks. I see your protocol holds these levels for 30 days. Is that a byproduct of the different type of copper treatment being used? Is 2 weeks instructed on the label not adequate?

As you know, my protocol is for Coppersafe, not Cupramine. Since I don't routinely use Cupramine, you need to judge for yourself how best to proceed. A couple of observations though: raising copper levels over 48 hours is always a mistake if the fish have active disease. It can take 72 hours for copper to really begin to work. Adding two days on to that can result in unneeded fish loss.

Additionally, it is pretty clear that copper does not really kill ich or velvet tomonts. Therefore, it is a logic flaw to dose for just two weeks when it is known the tomonts can remain infective for longer than that. Combine that, with the propensity for Cupramine to react poorly with reducing agents is why I don't use it. One technique used by some public aquariums is to dose copper for two weeks, then remove the copper, dose with a 2x prazi, then put the fish back into copper (killing any theronts) and then move the fish straight out of the copper treatment into the DT. This can take the process down to a bit more than 30 days. I don't do that myself, I think it is rushing things, but just wanted to put it out there as an option.....

Jay

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

As you know, my protocol is for Coppersafe, not Cupramine. Since I don't routinely use Cupramine, you need to judge for yourself how best to proceed. A couple of observations though: raising copper levels over 48 hours is always a mistake if the fish have active disease. It can take 72 hours for copper to really begin to work. Adding two days on to that can result in unneeded fish loss.

Additionally, it is pretty clear that copper does not really kill ich or velvet tomonts. Therefore, it is a logic flaw to dose for just two weeks when it is known the tomonts can remain infective for longer than that. Combine that, with the propensity for Cupramine to react poorly with reducing agents is why I don't use it. One technique used by some public aquariums is to dose copper for two weeks, then remove the copper, dose with a 2x prazi, then put the fish back into copper (killing any theronts) and then move the fish straight out of the copper treatment into the DT. This can take the process down to a bit more than 30 days. I don't do that myself, I think it is rushing things, but just wanted to put it out there as an option.....

Jay

Yes sir I understood there was probably some difference between Cooper mean and coppersafe. I've never used the latter, I just thought it was interesting when reading the label versus your current QT procedures.

Thanks for taking the time to help everyone.

 

[StPatrick89]

Yes sir I understood there was probably some difference between Cooper mean and coppersafe. I've never used the latter, I just thought it was interesting when reading the label versus your current QT procedures.

Thanks for taking the time to help everyone.

Say you take your fish out of qt. If there’s no ammonia in there to feed the bacteria, it will die off which is why you need something out of your dt with bacteria on it?

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Say you take your fish out of qt. If there’s no ammonia in there to feed the bacteria, it will die off which is why you need something out of your dt with bacteria on it?

Not sure you meant to quote me on that. I wasn't involved in that discussion.

And no, You won't kill off your bacteria by removing a the fish from your tank. Minuscule amount, sure. Enough to matter in any real way, No.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not sure you meant to quote me on that. I wasn't involved in that discussion.

And no, You won't kill off your bacteria by removing a the fish from your tank. Minuscule amount, sure. Enough to matter in any real way, No.

Correct, the nitrifying bacteria can remain effective for months of no fish in a tank, I’ve always been surprised how resilient they are. We even backwash our sand filters with tap water with no real loss of activity.
Jay

 

[StPatrick89]

Not sure you meant to quote me on that. I wasn't involved in that discussion.

And no, You won't kill off your bacteria by removing a the fish from your tank. Minuscule amount, sure. Enough to matter in any real way, No.

My bad that was for Jay

 

[StPatrick89]

Correct, the nitrifying bacteria can remain effective for months of no fish in a tank, I’ve always been surprised how resilient they are. We even backwash our sand filters with tap water with no real loss of activity.
Jay

So can you add say Seachem stability in the interim just to keep the bacteria going? It should be growing on the media, and glass.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So can you add say Seachem stability in the interim just to keep the bacteria going? It should be growing on the media, and glass.

If the biofilter is already established there is no need to add more by adding Stability. If I have a tank that is going to be empty for more than a couple of months I’ll add food to it periodically.

Jay

 

[StPatrick89]

If the biofilter is already established there is no need to add more by adding Stability. If I have a tank that is going to be empty for more than a couple of months I’ll add food to it periodically.

Jay

Sweet, thanks

 

[dyno]

Hey @Jay Hemdal have you ever had a bad reaction between copper power and seachem prime? People seem to kill their fish with the ammonia quicker than the disease they are trying to eradicate. I use it and noting bad has ever happened. Not a single time. What about you?

 

[MTM]

Think about this - if you move fish from your QT to your DT at the end of a quarantine cycle, moving the biowheel back will not add anything to your DT that the fish themselves didn't already bring with them. There is simply no need to sterilize the biowheel, or any other item being moved from the QT to the DT. The key here is never release fish from quarantine unless you are confident they are as "clean" as the process will allow.

Jay

Excellent point, sir. Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Excellent point, sir. Thanks

I should have also mentioned - in the case of a failed quarantine, when fish were lost and not moved to the DT, the entire QT should be completely sterilized....since the lost fish presumably died from something that was not controlled.

Jay