Cryptic problem: RO membranes clog up. Please help

[sneekapeek]

You can leave the sediment filter in if you’d like! and fill the chamber halfway or all the way filled with muriatic. Probably 3/4 because it’s a screw in and it’s easier not to spill. It’ll clean whatever deposits out and flush out build up around the membrane!
Any valve that slowly rises. You want the shut off to be instant. The machine is either on/off. Usually valves that look like a lever are not good to have! Not dribble over time! You just want to make it so the unit runs at whatever gpm flow it’s intended for and then shuts off when it reaches capacity in holding tank. You don’t want the valve to close halfway reducing your flow and still wasting lots of water. It messes with the membranes.

You’d be surprised what people add to their salt mixing vats to lower dkh! And then put it into their fish tank with awesome results. It’ll flush out in minutes!
again do what your comfortable with! As a last resort before you get fed up and no other options. I’d try it. You’ll see how easy it is. But it is extra labor compared to what you used to do!

 

[rajdude]

You’d be surprised what people add to their salt mixing vats to lower dkh! And then put it into their fish tank with awesome results. It’ll flush out in minutes!
again do what your comfortable with! As a last resort before you get fed up and no other options. I’d try it. You’ll see how easy it is. But it is extra labor compared to what you used to do!

ok thanks for the info.

I may want to try this procedure. I already have the muriatic acid lying around.

 

[rajdude]

Water pressure observation

Just measured stuff:

Outside garden hose spigot : 61 PSI using a Watts brand gauge

Gauge in RO system, connected after carbon blocks : 55 PSI

Looked at the house's pressure regulator:
Says set to 45 PSI. but it is adjustable. Maybe someone increased it a little bit.




BRS says this about the kit I was using

Water Saver Upgrade Kit

Why does BRS recommend this? Water Saving Upgrade Kits are probably our most recommended RODI upgrade. If you have proper pressure (65+ PSI) we highly recommend installing the kit, because it will produce water twice as fast as a standard 75 GPD or 100 GPD membrane while cutting the amount of...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

It does require 65psi or more into the first membrane in order to function properly and be efficient.

Hmmm. So at 55 PSI, that could be the problem?

But the question still remains..........why does it start good and slow down. That means fouling, right?

 

[a.t.t.r]

yeah, that is exactly what the BRS water saver kit setup is. Check it out here

Water Saver Upgrade Kit

Why does BRS recommend this? Water Saving Upgrade Kits are probably our most recommended RODI upgrade. If you have proper pressure (65+ PSI) we highly recommend installing the kit, because it will produce water twice as fast as a standard 75 GPD or 100 GPD membrane while cutting the amount of...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

It did work really well at first, but clogged up pretty fast. Stats here:

I am thinking of removing my DI stage. Discus really do not need 0 TDS. They will be perfectly find at 7 TDS or so.

But the million dollar question still remains in my mind.......how to maximize membrane life?
I am also worried about all this water which is going down the drain.

As of today:
I calculate at least 90 gallons per day is going down the drain :-( That calculates to around 1400 gallons per month, assuming I run my RO water filter every 2 days for 12 hours, because of crappy production rates.

See that is the thing I do not understand.......how were you able to maintain rates over a year with non stop use? Did you have soft water out of the tap?

I am in Florida. Our water is basically stone. The point is the membrane is still GOOD until the TDS ratio starts to go even if production has slowed. I am recommending slowing waste water output to match the lower production rate. so at 170 ml production aim for like 200 ml waste or even lower if you are ok with short flushes once a day and call it a day.

Additionally the only reason any of us care about rejection rates being super high is the life of the DI resin. If you are not using DI resin anymore you have more wiggle room. Let your unit go until rejection is at 85 percent or so. (30 ish tds water is FINE for what you are doing )

 

[a.t.t.r]

Water pressure observation

Just measured stuff:

Outside garden hose spigot : 61 PSI using a Watts brand gauge

Gauge in RO system, connected after carbon blocks : 55 PSI

Looked at the house's pressure regulator:
Says set to 45 PSI. but it is adjustable. Maybe someone increased it a little bit.




BRS says this about the kit I was using

Water Saver Upgrade Kit

Why does BRS recommend this? Water Saving Upgrade Kits are probably our most recommended RODI upgrade. If you have proper pressure (65+ PSI) we highly recommend installing the kit, because it will produce water twice as fast as a standard 75 GPD or 100 GPD membrane while cutting the amount of...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Hmmm. So at 55 PSI, that could be the problem?

But the question still remains..........why does it start good and slow down. That means fouling, right?

as pressure drops the ratio of production will shift. It could be A issue but it would not explain the gradual drop off. You could try a pressure pump and see if it helps.

 

[rajdude]

I am in Florida. Our water is basically stone. The point is the membrane is still GOOD until the TDS ratio starts to go even if production has slowed. I am recommending slowing waste water output to match the lower production rate. so at 170 ml production aim for like 200 ml waste or even lower if you are ok with short flushes once a day and call it a day.

Additionally the only reason any of us care about rejection rates being super high is the life of the DI resin. If you are not using DI resin anymore you have more wiggle room. Let your unit go until rejection is at 85 percent or so. (30 ish tds water is FINE for what you are doing )

ok now I get it what you are saying. I may be fine with that. Let it run slowly, as long as the waste water is not too high.

What restrictor flow rate would you recommend?

Right now my permeate flow is measuring 90ml/min
Looking at BRS' website, the slowest I get get is 200 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Flow Restrictor

Flow restrictors are essential to a properly functioning RO system. Be sure to have the appropriate flow restrictor for the membrane you have. If you decide to change your membrane to a higher or lower GPD membrane, you must also replace the flow restrictor to correspond with the membrane. All...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I can live with the above but the restrictors I like don't come lower than 400 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Membrane Flush Valve

The Membrane Flush/Flow restrictor valve is an all in one flow restrictor equipped with a flush valve for easy worry free use. Keeping the flush and flow restrictor in a single package keeps fitting count down which means less chance for possible leaks or failures down the line. 550 mL/min for...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[a.t.t.r]

ok now I get it what you are saying. I may be fine with that. Let it run slowly, as long as the waste water is not too high.

What restrictor flow rate would you recommend?

Right now my permeate flow is measuring 90ml/min
Looking at BRS' website, the slowest I get get is 200 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Flow Restrictor

Flow restrictors are essential to a properly functioning RO system. Be sure to have the appropriate flow restrictor for the membrane you have. If you decide to change your membrane to a higher or lower GPD membrane, you must also replace the flow restrictor to correspond with the membrane. All...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I can live with the above but the restrictors I like don't come lower than 400 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Membrane Flush Valve

The Membrane Flush/Flow restrictor valve is an all in one flow restrictor equipped with a flush valve for easy worry free use. Keeping the flush and flow restrictor in a single package keeps fitting count down which means less chance for possible leaks or failures down the line. 550 mL/min for...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Use the above one and just use two T's and a valve and make a bypass no need for anything fancy. You can actually put two restrictors in series to slow it more if you want. Two 200's should end up producing a little more then 120ml iirc.

Again none of this is ideal but until you find the cause of the slow down it is better then swapping membranes every other month and wasting water. Make sure you measure TDS pre and post membrane. If you are using inline meters make sure they are rotated correctly (the two pins should be at perpendicular to the water flow not inline with it.)

 

[sneekapeek]

ok thanks for the info.

I may want to try this procedure. I already have the muriatic acid lying around.

It’s up to you, just make sure you are isolating the treated chambers to specifically what you want to clean! IE only sediment and membrane. Bypass everything else. Those little sureflo pumps will be affected by the treatment. Use city water pressure to flow. And bypass your tanks to dump permeate down the drain. Pulse water through, let it sit. Then flush! Then check your concentrate to permeate ratio. Guarantee to reduce build up. This will foul membranes prematurely, but the membrane would be toast other wise (10:1 ratio is garbage). You should be seeing 3:1 4:1 at worst. Any higher I’d consider acid flush. In some instances I’ll acid neutralize with potassium hydroxide for it’s added benefits.

 

[sneekapeek]

ok now I get it what you are saying. I may be fine with that. Let it run slowly, as long as the waste water is not too high.

What restrictor flow rate would you recommend?

Right now my permeate flow is measuring 90ml/min
Looking at BRS' website, the slowest I get get is 200 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Flow Restrictor

Flow restrictors are essential to a properly functioning RO system. Be sure to have the appropriate flow restrictor for the membrane you have. If you decide to change your membrane to a higher or lower GPD membrane, you must also replace the flow restrictor to correspond with the membrane. All...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I can live with the above but the restrictors I like don't come lower than 400 ml/min

Reverse Osmosis Membrane Flush Valve

The Membrane Flush/Flow restrictor valve is an all in one flow restrictor equipped with a flush valve for easy worry free use. Keeping the flush and flow restrictor in a single package keeps fitting count down which means less chance for possible leaks or failures down the line. 550 mL/min for...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Get a ball valve inline and drill a hole to desired size! That’ll put lots of back pressure to the system and get you what you want. A little trial and error. Drill test measure. Rinse repeat. Always start smaller than what you think because you can’t go backwards without replacing the ball valve!

 

[LeftyReefer]

I didn't realize OP was running 1:1.

So OP does have HARD WATER, and his RODI was setup in a 1:1 configuration, with no pre-treatment of his hard water. I'm pretty sure running a system 1:1 with hard water is not recommended because your membrane will scale up quickly in this configuration. Water hardness will deposit as scale inside the membrane. The membrane needs MORE water to flush out the scale, restricting the system down to 1:1 makes the problem worse. anybody with HARD water, without a water softener should not be running 1:1 from what I understand. I think if OP reconfigured the system to be 2.5:1 or so, with more water running through, not less, the membranes might last longer.

I wish @Buckeye Hydro would chime in here. He knows this stuff a lot better then me.

But saying that... OP is saying his water company is already complaining about his high usage, which still doesn't make sense to me.... running this RODI system making 20 gallons per day should be ZERO issue regardless of being run at a ratio of 1:1 or 2.5:1 I think OP has another issue going on besides the RODI system. I don't think it's the cause of his excessive water usage.

if OP's high usage was from the RODI system, why didn't his sewer/drain usage also increase proportionally? If all this extra water was just going down the drain, why didn't your drain usage show a big increase too? The picture of the usage report shows the water usage went way up, not coinciding with the RODI install, but the drain usage didn't increase proportionally... Are you sure you don't have a leaking lawn sprinkler or something? that usage report would seem to indicate you had a large increase in water usage that is NOT going down a drain.... Which is why I think of something leaking into the yard like a sprinkler, hose bib, pool connection, etc....

 

[rajdude]

Use the above one and just use two T's and a valve and make a bypass no need for anything fancy. You can actually put two restrictors in series to slow it more if you want. Two 200's should end up producing a little more then 120ml iirc.

Again none of this is ideal but until you find the cause of the slow down it is better then swapping membranes every other month and wasting water. Make sure you measure TDS pre and post membrane. If you are using inline meters make sure they are rotated correctly (the two pins should be at perpendicular to the water flow not inline with it.)

Thanks for the tips! I do have three inline meters, never knew that their position matters :-(

Slowing down drain, makes sense. At lease reduce the waste water. But I will need to order some parts.

Gotta incorporate an auto flush. I had started a project like this... but without that much complicated setup

It's Alive - RODI monitor/controller

After building my DIY aquarium monitor/controller, I thought it would be easy to use what I learned to make a smart RODI filter. It ended up being a lot harder than I expected, but as of this morning, I can finally say IT'S ALIVE. The first few drops of smart RODI water just started trickling...

www.tcmas.org

This is my ultimate goal, a little overkill though:

Reverse Osmosis Controller

Monitor and control a reverse osmosis system for your reef or house water purification. By Chad.

www.hackster.io

 

[rajdude]

I didn't realize OP was running 1:1.

So OP does have HARD WATER, and his RODI was setup in a 1:1 configuration, with no pre-treatment of his hard water. I'm pretty sure running a system 1:1 with hard water is not recommended because your membrane will scale up quickly in this configuration. Water hardness will deposit as scale inside the membrane. The membrane needs MORE water to flush out the scale, restricting the system down to 1:1 makes the problem worse. anybody with HARD water, without a water softener should not be running 1:1 from what I understand. I think if OP reconfigured the system to be 2.5:1 or so, with more water running through, not less, the membranes might last longer.

I wish @Buckeye Hydro would chime in here. He knows this stuff a lot better then me.

But saying that... OP is saying his water company is already complaining about his high usage, which still doesn't make sense to me.... running this RODI system making 20 gallons per day should be ZERO issue regardless of being run at a ratio of 1:1 or 2.5:1 I think OP has another issue going on besides the RODI system. I don't think it's the cause of his excessive water usage.

if OP's high usage was from the RODI system, why didn't his sewer/drain usage also increase proportionally? If all this extra water was just going down the drain, why didn't your drain usage show a big increase too? The picture of the usage report shows the water usage went way up, not coinciding with the RODI install, but the drain usage didn't increase proportionally... Are you sure you don't have a leaking lawn sprinkler or something? that usage report would seem to indicate you had a large increase in water usage that is NOT going down a drain.... Which is why I think of something leaking into the yard like a sprinkler, hose bib, pool connection, etc....

Yeah, I think you may be correct.

However, hard water does not usually foul the membranes unless like you said, the flow is too little....which probably was (I have switched to a single membrane system now). I was told that things like silica fouls the membranes. I was reading this, pretty informative:

Fouling Solutions

Solutions to RO Membrane Fouling

www.watertreatmentguide.com

I never bought anything from Buckeye Hydro. Will they still talk to me?

About water company and their graphs:
First, they have no actual meter in the sewer line. It is all in a "guesstimate" basis. They have some algorithm I think.
They do say that in the summer they reduce the sewer costs because people irrigate their lawns. I do irrigate my lawn, but not frequently, only when it is getting brown a little (probably too late by then, LoL )

This house does not have a sprinkler system. No pool. I think I should test. Maybe the meter is visible to me. I know there is an access man hole type thingy in the front yard. Shut down everything in the house and check the meter.

 

[rajdude]

Get a ball valve inline and drill a hole to desired size! That’ll put lots of back pressure to the system and get you what you want. A little trial and error. Drill test measure. Rinse repeat. Always start smaller than what you think because you can’t go backwards without replacing the ball valve!

Good DIY idea or use one of these?

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

 

[rajdude]

this one should be perfect!

 

[a.t.t.r]

Yeah, I think you may be correct.

However, hard water does not usually foul the membranes unless like you said, the flow is too little....which probably was (I have switched to a single membrane system now). I was told that things like silica fouls the membranes. I was reading this, pretty informative:

Fouling Solutions

Solutions to RO Membrane Fouling

www.watertreatmentguide.com

I never bought anything from Buckeye Hydro. Will they still talk to me?

About water company and their graphs:
First, they have no actual meter in the sewer line. It is all in a "guesstimate" basis. They have some algorithm I think.
They do say that in the summer they reduce the sewer costs because people irrigate their lawns. I do irrigate my lawn, but not frequently, only when it is getting brown a little (probably too late by then, LoL )

This house does not have a sprinkler system. No pool. I think I should test. Maybe the meter is visible to me. I know there is an access man hole type thingy in the front yard. Shut down everything in the house and check the meter.

Double membrane in series is the same flow rate as a single membrane with the same restrictor. ( or close enough to not matter). Even at 1:1 hard water should not be making these issues but could try going the other direction and upping the flush. Gotta decide if you care more about waste or membrane life. Could also use one of these https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aquatec-auto-flush-flow-restrictor.html and have it auto flush every hour ( however lowest restrictor is 300ml and since it is internal the 2 in series trick wont work )

 

[sneekapeek]

this one should be perfect!

Problem is you can’t open it up to flush! It would be a pita to have to readjust every time!

 

[sneekapeek]

Double membrane in series is the same flow rate as a single membrane with the same restrictor. ( or close enough to not matter). Even at 1:1 hard water should not be making these issues but could try going the other direction and upping the flush. Gotta decide if you care more about waste or membrane life. Could also use one of these https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aquatec-auto-flush-flow-restrictor.html and have it auto flush every hour ( however lowest restrictor is 300ml and since it is internal the 2 in series trick wont work )

Membrane may be rated at 1:1 but that’s under perfect conditions. Honestly I’d shoot for 3:1 on a 75gpd unit no matter the rating on membrane. You’ll get more life out of it period.

 

[sneekapeek]

Good DIY idea or use one of these?

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Unless you know real time flow rates. Opening valve to flush is troublesome. You’d have to measure to get desired ratio. I’d stay away from those needle valves unless you hook up an inline bypass to flush.

 

[CoralB]

That is nowhere near INSANE. Your toilets are probably still using way more water.

The average (non reefing) American household uses over 300 gallons of water per day. That's over 9000 gallons per month. Toilets account for 24% of our total water usage, so that's about 72 gallons per day in the average American household.



Something seems way off here....

My system produces water at 1:2.5 ratio. If I were to make 20 gallons of RODI per day, my total water usage would increase by about 70 gallons (20 product, 50 waste) per day, which is still less than or equal to what your toilets are using each day.

if you flushed your toilet twice instead of once, do you think the water company would come knocking at that INSANE amount of additional water usage? I doubt it.

Something else seems to be leading towards increased usage if the water company is actually complaining. I find it hard to believe this RODI unit is using that much water... unless it is not setup efficiently, and wasting way more water than necessary.

OP is making a lot of RODI, but not enough that it should upset the water company.... I'm sure the house of 8 down the street is still using more water.

How much waste is being produced for every gallon of product water?

Are you sure you don't have a leaky toilet or plumbing somewhere leading to all this usage?

72 gallons per day to flush toilets ??? Does the family have IBS ?? Average family is 4 and the water savers that most homes have flush 2 1/2 gallons x 4 people = 10 gallons . even if they double flush it’s 20 gallons . I think someone at your house is playing “ Oh no it’s a water spout with paper boats “ or they have serious gastrointestinal issues !!!

 

[KStatefan]

72 gallons per day to flush toilets ??? Does the family have IBS ?? Average family is 4 and the water savers that most homes have flush 2 1/2 gallons x 4 people = 10 gallons . even if they double flush it’s 20 gallons . I think someone at your house is playing “ Oh no it’s a water spout with paper boats “ or they have serious gastrointestinal issues !!!

You need to drink more water if you are only flushing twice a day.