Could we utilise the Redfield ratio a little better in aquaria?

[sixty_reefer]

exactly this, the thread makes zero sense to me. And I wouldn't say that is a matter of me not understanding the subject...

If you know the subject, you should also know that we can identify a C limitation in reef aquaria by just knowing the Residual Nitrate and Phosphate variations. Is the above True or false?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Is a disagreement criticism? I think several here have tried to help steer the conversation to something more meaningful and move you past the redfield ratio.

You can only have a disagreement if there is something to not agree on. I’ve had questions that were answered to the best of my knowledge and not corrected as they are factual. If you look back through the tread this happened many times, a question was asked I’ve answered it and they started looking for something else.
That’s called criticism imo

 

[Hats_]

If you know the subject, you should also know that we can identify a C limitation in reef aquaria by just knowing the Residual Nitrate and Phosphate variations. Is the above True or false?

I do yet this has nothing to do with the Redfield ratio, as we are trying to tell you. Also I don't see the point in wanting to know this since due to the large amount of other variables you'd never be able to utilise it anyway

 

[sixty_reefer]

I do yet this has nothing to do with the Redfield ratio, as we are trying to tell you. Also I don't see the point in wanting to know this since due to the large amount of other variables you'd never be able to utilise it anyway

You can leave the Redfield ratio aside for now they overlap later.
Could you clarify how to identify if C is limited using Nitrate and phosphate?

 

[Hats_]

You can leave the Redfield ratio aside for now they overlap later.
Could you clarify how to identify if C is limited using Nitrate and phosphate?

in a reef tank? impossible

 

[sixty_reefer]

in a reef tank? impossible

This is my argument, I believe it’s possible to have an idea if it’s limited using Nitrate and phosphate residual. Being able to evaluate if all 3 nutrients are in balance.

 

[Hats_]

This is my argument, I believe it’s possible to have an idea if it’s limited using Nitrate and phosphate residual. Being able to evaluate if all 3 nutrients are in balance.

seeing as there is not just one organism in a reef tank that uses N, P and C plus they're ability to take in ammonia directly before being broken down by bacteria in the rock, sand and filtermedia id say the chances of accurately predicting your DOC is slim to none. Also the 'balance' you mention is non existent since there is no effect you can observe in either N or P if you lower or raise the other unless you bottom one out entirely

 

[sixty_reefer]

seeing as there is not just one organism in a reef tank that uses N, P and C plus they're ability to take in ammonia directly before being broken down by bacteria in the rock, sand and filtermedia id say the chances of accurately predicting your DOC is slim to none. Also the 'balance' you mention is non existent since there is no effect you can observe in either N or P if you lower or raise the other unless you bottom one out entirely

Yeas, they are called variables although I don’t believe they influence the overall determination if a nutrient is bottom out ( I prefer to say limited).
I believe if we set the variables a side for a minute and just focus on the pelagic heterotrophic bacteria and use Nitrate and Phosphate to determine if the bacteria is limited by any of the nutrients

 

[ReneReef]

You can only have a disagreement if there is something to not agree on. I’ve had questions that were answered to the best of my knowledge and not corrected as they are factual. If you look back through the tread this happened many times, a question was asked I’ve answered it and they started looking for something else.
That’s called criticism imo

Sorry, but me abandoning the discussion does not mean you were right and I ran out of things to “criticise” you on. I hope you’re joking.

Honestly, I just stopped because I was fed up with your style of endless vague meanderings and blaming other’s “lack of expertise” for your inability to make your point. We are now six pages in and you still haven’t been able to make clear to us what you’re on about and how its relevant to our hobby.

Me and many other have pointed out the many factual and practical holes in your theories/assertions/“facts” whatever you call it. That is part of any normal discussion, we do not criticise you we are critical about the information you present.

And yes, plenty of us are plenty knowledgeable, so saying we don’t understand you because we lack expertise is ridiculous. Also, what use is an expert such as yourself(?) that cannot explain his or her expertise to others???

 

[sixty_reefer]

Sorry, but me abandoning the discussion does not mean you were right and I ran out of things to “criticise” you on. I hope you’re joking.

Honestly, I just stopped because I was fed up with your style of endless vague meanderings and blaming other’s “lack of expertise” for your inability to make your point. We are now six pages in and you still haven’t been able to make clear to us what you’re on about and how its relevant to our hobby.

Me and many other have pointed out the many factual and practical holes in your theories/assertions/“facts” whatever you call it. That is part of any normal discussion, we do not criticise you we are critical about the information you present.

And yes, plenty of us are plenty knowledgeable, so saying we don’t understand you because we lack expertise is ridiculous. Also, what use is an expert such as yourself(?) that cannot explain his or her expertise to others???

I’d just like to point out that one of the pages was a discussion about bacon.

If you want to take the discussion seriously let’s talk about the ability of determining a C limitation in reef aquaria with the residual Nitrate and Phosphate.

 

[Eric R.]

There is a bunch of nonsense in the reef supplement world, such as by Brightwell, about carbon limitation.

A normal reef tank is always carbon limited. You do not want it otherwise.

All it means is that if you add readily metabolized organic matter (like vinegar or vodka or sugar) to a reef tank, bacteria can eat it and grow.

Most tanks with detectable levels of N and P in the water are going to be carbon limited. That’s why dosing a carbon source into the aquarium can help remove N and P.

It seems that if you have testable levels of N and P, you are very probably C limited. What else is it that you would like to know?

 

[MnFish1]

Redfield has several uses in science one of my favourite implementations of Redfield ratio is to determine nutrient limitations in aquaria.

With the main reference ratio being 16:1, this number is widely agreed between aquarists including many experts on this forum for the assimilation rate of N and P for heterotrophic bacteria during carbon dosing and it’s also agreed between several expert aquarist that if a reef tank is limited by P for example that we cannot lower nitrates using organic carbon due to the bacteria becoming limited in one nutrient.

My point being that would we gain more as aquarist by understanding how Redfield nutrient limitations work?

Some examples were Redfield could be used as a example could be in the battle against nuisances algae like GHA as many folks do tend deplete a system from phosphates causing their biological filter to be unable to assimilate nutrients that could compete with the algae for example.

There is many other ways that I can think were we could use Redfield nutrient limitations in order to improve coral growth and reducing nuisances although I would like to hear your thoughts.


If you read all this way please don’t just post saying that you like to keep your No3 and Po4 at the same ratio as Redfield as that’s not how it’s used, that’s just a preference on how someone keeps their residual N and P, sorry had to be said.

I think this is a deep misinterpretation of the Redfield ratio - and I don't feel its relevant to aquaria
However if people want to pick a ratio. - go ahead - I do not think there is any correlation between the science and the success of an aquarium. Redfield himself I believe concluded that the 'ratio' (which is of plankton in the water) - that the plankton was the driver of the ratio - as compared to added nutrients. - I think its a fundamental misunderstanding of the science.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I think this is a deep misinterpretation of the Redfield ratio - and I don't feel its relevant to aquaria
However if people want to pick a ratio. - go ahead - I do not think there is any correlation between the science and the success of an aquarium. Redfield himself I believe concluded that the 'ratio' (which is of plankton in the water) - that the plankton was the driver of the ratio - as compared to added nutrients. - I think its a fundamental misunderstanding of the science.

With all due respect mate, I’m not discussing that, I’ve mentioned several times that that’s a nonsense ideology.
To take this discussion further we need folks that know how to identify possible C limitation with residual Nitrate and Phosphate in reef aquaria imo.

 

[areefer01]

I’d just like to point out that one of the pages was a discussion about bacon.

If you would ask yourself what bacon and redfield ratio has in common to home aquaria I bet you would have a light bulb moment.

 

[areefer01]

With all due respect mate, I’m not discussing that, I’ve mentioned several times that that’s a nonsense ideology.
To take this discussion further we need folks that know how to identify possible C limitation with residual Nitrate and Phosphate in reef aquaria imo.

Did you, or did you not, create the subject title and have you checked it recently? You clearly titled the post utilize the redfield ratio...

 

[sixty_reefer]

If you would ask yourself what bacon and redfield ratio has in common to home aquaria I bet you would have a light bulb moment.

Have you ever thought of crab fishing

 

[sixty_reefer]

Did you, or did you not, create the subject title and have you checked it recently? You clearly titled the post utilize the redfield ratio...

Redfield overlaps, just not in the way you are thinking

 

[Hats_]

Did you, or did you not, create the subject title and have you checked it recently? You clearly titled the post utilize the redfield ratio...

i have a feeling that the title is just to bait people to discuss him, since nobody actually cares about the subject he wants to push since it has no application to keeping fish and coral in a glass box

 

[areefer01]

Have you ever thought of crab fishing

No. I am allergic to shellfish.

 

[sixty_reefer]

i have a feeling that the title is just to bait people to discuss him, since nobody actually cares about the subject he wants to push since it has no application to keeping fish and coral in a glass box

Ok