Can't keep nitrates and phosphates up. Insights??

[sugar]

Hi all!

I've browsed lots of threads and already have some ideas, but wondering if I laid out my system and what I'm working with, something might jump out at anyone else but me!

I currently have an IM Lagoon 25g, and here is my complete stock list:

Fish
Two ocellaris clowns (both ~1 inch)
Bicolor blenny (~2.5 inch)
Green clown goby (~1 inch; or smaller, he's very tiny)
Yellow watchman goby (~2 inch)
Pink-streaked wrasse (~1 inch)

Inverts
Cleaner shrimp x1
Peppermint shrimp x1
Tiger pistol shrimp x1
Emerald crab x1
Blue-legged hermit crabs x4
Fighting conch x1
Astrea snails x3
Trochus snail x1
Bumblebee snail x1
Nassarius snail x1
Cerith snail x1
Mini-maxi carpet anemone x1
Stomatella, collonista, small sponges, and other random little hitchhikers

Soft Corals
Toadstools x3
Finger leather x1
GSP
Xenia
Blue pineapple tree
Clove polyps
Mushrooms x7
Cabbage leather x1
Palys & zoas x12 (at 4-20 polyps each, or so)
Gorgonian

LPS
Duncan
Hammer x2
Alveopora
Blasto
Acan

SPS
Stylo
Monticap

Macro
Blade caulerpa
Small bits of GHA here and there, which I manually remove

Now... yes, this is a stocked tank! The fish and corals are small, and I notice the corals have been growing very slowly! I've been thinking the lack of nutrients may be stunting their growth rate...?

I never would have thought that with the above listed, in this size tank, I would have such a hard time with keeping any detectable nitrate or phosphate. I am constantly reading 0 nitrates (API and Hanna) and 0 phosphate (ULR Hanna).

I should mention:

- I had dinos (shudder) months ago and has been resolved ever since!
- I had dime-sized patches of thick GHA here and there which I manually remove. Typically, day-to-day, there is very little GHA existing. If it ever gets long enough to pluck, I pluck it.
- Tiny patches of red or green cyano have been popping up, but I just blast it away and it won't come back again for days or - weeks. When it does, it is very little.

I feed a mixture of things:

- Pellets (PE Mysis and Hikari Marine-S)
- Flake (fish don't like flakes, but I have it on hand)
- Frozen (brine, spirulina brine, LRS Nano, cyclopods)
- Reef Roids (I actually just started two weeks or so, and have only fed like 3 times)
- Phyto (just the Brightwell PhytoChrom I think!)
- Selcon
- Aminos (Brightwell CoralAmino)

Filtration:

- The AIO chambers of the Lagoon I just have filter pads that I change out a few times a week; a little Reef Octopus NS-80 (not sure if it's working effectively at all, I just like the aeration, very weak/wet skimmate); 1/4 cup of carbon, and Matrix
- Weekly 5 gallon water changes mainly to replenish Ca/Alk/trace elements (just getting started dosing 2-part)
- Blast rocks and stir sand semi-daily

What I plan to do:

- Feed more! Although, I feel like I do feed a lot (when I feed pellets and frozen, there's lots left over that I leave in the tank for the scavenging inverts)
- I had not been dosing anything since I had dinos, and I just started with the Roids, aminos and phyto again a few weeks ago, a few times a week. Still no dice, so might slooowly ramp that up to more often.
- ...I don't know

The caulerpa grows very fast and I had let QUITE a lot grow in. I ripped 90% of it out and have like... 8 small leaves left now.

What the darn heck is going on? Is the caulerpa sucking everything up? The GHA (I just didn't think there was enough GHA present, but.. maybe?).

I ordered some NeoNitro and NeoPhos as a last resort, but I wanted to play with increasing food, Roids, aminos and phytos.

Maybe the caulerpa, trace amounts of GHA, and the corals are sucking everything up and I legit need to feed my system more?

Thanks all! That was cathartic to write out

 

[Mhamilton0911]

Hello there! I read through and I didn't see what rock you used?

Dry rock is a sponge for nutrients for a long time. Live rock, wether from the ocean or well cured from an established tank won't soak up nitrate and phos the way dry rock does.

I started with 90% dry rock myself and struggled with detectable levels for almost a year. I did end up dosing a little brightwell's n and p for a while. Until I was getting actual readings on my Hanna checkers after not dosing for a week or so.

On another tank build I used real ocean live rock and have detectable levels instantly. So I definitely experienced different results just based off rock alone.

 

[Mhamilton0911]

I guess I should add, I think your plan of attack seems similar to what I went through (especially if you used dry rock), and I believe time will help. The manual removal of nuisance algae is a good idea, and you're already feeding plenty, many say to increase feeding to get detectable levels. I definitely dosed on the lighter side, as I didn't want a huge increase to mess with anything or create more problems.

And I see you're a new member, so welcome to the forum!

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Looking through your whole process (thank you for all the details), I would not stress over the NO3 and PO4 being at 0 right now.

First, observe, do your corals and fish look healthy and happy? Then let it ride, don't change your routine yet.

Second, if you really want to increase your numbers some, feed the tank some more, try target feeding the corals with some amino soaked pellets.

Next, I have always struggled with the idea of adding something to my tank via dosing to just export it via water changes. So if you want those NO3 and PO4 to rise I would recommend doing it via feeding verse dosing.

And last, Algae will export NO3 and PO4 in a smaller tank faster than you may think, so just because you're testing 0 does not mean you're actually at 0 or there would be no algae and a lot more issues.

 

[sugar]

Hello there! I read through and I didn't see what rock you used?

Dry rock is a sponge for nutrients for a long time. Live rock, wether from the ocean or well cured from an established tank won't soak up nitrate and phos the way dry rock does.

I started with 90% dry rock myself and struggled with detectable levels for almost a year. I did end up dosing a little brightwell's n and p for a while. Until I was getting actual readings on my Hanna checkers after not dosing for a week or so.

On another tank build I used real ocean live rock and have detectable levels instantly. So I definitely experienced different results just based off rock alone.

Dry rock! Well..... "dry life rock." Meaning, dry rock seeded with bacteria so yes, it would be just dry rock. I used live sand to get things going.

Very, very good point! Thank you for mentioning your experience; I feel like this could be it. I have read before about rock becoming saturated with P and leeching, but why did it never occur to me that my rock may be still up-taking everything at this stage?!

I've only had this tank set up since May of this year. It makes sense!

 

[sugar]

I guess I should add, I think your plan of attack seems similar to what I went through (especially if you used dry rock), and I believe time will help. The manual removal of nuisance algae is a good idea, and you're already feeding plenty, many say to increase feeding to get detectable levels. I definitely dosed on the lighter side, as I didn't want a huge increase to mess with anything or create more problems.

And I see you're a new member, so welcome to the forum!

Thank you for the welcome!! I have been a lurker for too long and since I should be upgrading my system here soon, it's time to go all in!

Really appreciate the input! This gives me some hope Everything has been doing well enough, apart from the slow growth maybe (well, my poor finger leather and cabbage are very, very sad, probably to do with the nutrients or someone is picking on them).

 

[Muffin87]

I'd say broadcast feed, and a minute quantity of ozone into your skimmer 30 mins a day everyday. Not too difficult to implement, just get a small & cheap weipro ozonizer 25 mg/h, set it at the minimum, with a Milwaukee ORP controller to keep the ORP in check.

That seems to keep some of the nasties associated with low nutrients at bay, including dinos. That's what's come out in a recent live Q&A on reef dudes with a friend of his who's implemented ozone to keep dinos at bay, after Ryan from BRS had a similar outcome with ozone and dinos.

 

[Evil1]

You mentioned you have a protein skimmer. I would turn it off and monitor your levels.

 

[sugar]

Looking through your whole process (thank you for all the details), I would not stress over the NO3 and PO4 being at 0 right now.

First, observe, do your corals and fish look healthy and happy? Then let it ride, don't change your routine yet.

Second, if you really want to increase your numbers some, feed the tank some more, try target feeding the corals with some amino soaked pellets.

Next, I have always struggled with the idea of adding something to my tank via dosing to just export it via water changes. So if you want those NO3 and PO4 to rise I would recommend doing it via feeding verse dosing.

And last, Algae will export NO3 and PO4 in a smaller tank faster than you may think, so just because you're testing 0 does not mean you're actually at 0 or there would be no algae and a lot more issues.

Okay, yes, I need to take a breath! Almost everything is doing OK for the most part, so there's no crisis by any means (I am a worrier). Growth seems to be slower than I've seen with my previous setup in which I had no problems with nutrients. I just added in another post that my finger leather and cabbage frags have been very sad, but they might be getting picked on or I had them in too much light.. oops.

I agree with you on the dosing. I don't like to get into additives too much (beyond food things.. roids, aminos, and phyto). I won't add things "just cause" anymore.. it can create more issues. I actually never heard of dosing nitrate and phosphate until I re-entered the hobby this spring! I couldn't believe what I was reading; seems like everyone does it! I did grab a small bottle each of NeoNitro and NeoPhos to have on hand, maybe in case things do start to deteriorate and I need to rule out lack of (detectable) nutrients as a cause.

Yes, thank you for making that last point! I literally can't have 0 nitrate and phosphate because the Caulerpa flourishes, the GHA is always creepin' and the specs of cyano come and go.

Is there a chill pill I can take???

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Dry rock! Well..... "dry life rock." Meaning, dry rock seeded with bacteria so yes, it would be just dry rock. I used live sand to get things going.

Very, very good point! Thank you for mentioning your experience; I feel like this could be it. I have read before about rock becoming saturated with P and leeching, but why did it never occur to me that my rock may be still up-taking everything at this stage?!

I've only had this tank set up since May of this year. It makes sense!

Yeah, that should do it. I’ve heard to many people running in to issues down the line when trying to get their levels up with pure dosing of nutrients when the dry rock is soaking it all up.
I’d personally rather stick to your plan of feeding more. That should also have the benefit of feeding the micro fauna.

 

[sugar]

I'd say broadcast feed, and a minute quantity of ozone into your skimmer 30 mins a day everyday. Not too difficult to implement, just get a small & cheap weipro ozonizer 25 mg/h, set it at the minimum, with a Milwaukee ORP controller to keep the ORP in check.

That seems to keep some of the nasties associated with low nutrients at bay, including dinos. That's what's come out in a recent live Q&A on reef dudes with a friend of his who's implemented ozone to keep dinos at bay, after Ryan from BRS had a similar outcome with ozone and dinos.

I actually have an ORP probe and PM1 on the way for my Apex!! I've never looked too much into adding ozone but it sounds interesting! I've been wondering about adding a UV to my next system, but I just haven't looked into it too much.

Dinos.. ugggggghhhhhh.

The worst.

 

[sugar]

You mentioned you have a protein skimmer. I would turn it off and monitor your levels.

Yeah, it definitely seems/feels like I don't need it to be running. I'll reduce it, or run it only at night, and then take it off completely... just to see what happens.

 

[sugar]

Yeah, that should do it. I’ve heard to many people running in to issues down the line when trying to get their levels up with pure dosing of nutrients when the dry rock is soaking it all up.
I’d personally rather stick to your plan of feeding more. That should also have the benefit of feeding the micro fauna.

The micro fauna has been one of my favorite parts of this hobby! I wish I had microscopic vision. I could sit and watch the sand and glass ALL DAY. Of course, I love my fish and inverts, but the pods have me rollin' sometimes. They are hilarious???

 

[Evil1]

Yeah, it definitely seems/feels like I don't need it to be running. I'll reduce it, or run it only at night, and then take it off completely... just to see what happens.

I would also buy a small bottle of Red Sea AB+ and dose daily as per instructions. Not only is it great food/ aminos for corals but it will raise nitrates/phosphates without polluting water like over feeding might.

 

[sugar]

I would also buy a small bottle of Red Sea AB+ and dose daily as per instructions. Not only is it great food/ aminos for corals but it will raise nitrates/phosphates without polluting water like over feeding might.

Another product I never heard of until getting back into the game! I'm going to take a closer look at it Thanks for the suggestion!!

 

[Evil1]

Another product I never heard of until getting back into the game! I'm going to take a closer look at it Thanks for the suggestion!!

I use it daily for over a year. In my opinion great product.

 

[Sticker shock]

Your situation sounds similar to mine. The levels were difficult to keep above 0 until they weren’t. I was dosing neonitro and neophos to slowly raise my numbers. At some point I no longer needed to dose and have since switched to dosing Bacto balance to keep levels flat.
My suggestion is to dose and test to get to the values you feel are best for your tank. And then take it from there.

 

[sugar]

Your situation sounds similar to mine. The levels were difficult to keep above 0 until they weren’t. I was dosing neonitro and neophos to slowly raise my numbers. At some point I no longer needed to dose and have since switched to dosing Bacto balance to keep levels flat.
My suggestion is to dose and test to get to the values you feel are best for your tank. And then take it from there.

I am very wary of the situation flipping on me! I don't want to do too much and now I'm into problems with nutrients out of control

Valuable advice and reminder to take it slow. Appreciate it!! Not that I like hearing about others' struggles, but it's nice knowing I'm not alone!

 

[Mhamilton0911]

Is there a chill pill I can take???

Yes! I know this one! It's the forum. Basically just spending time learning, making friends, starting a build thread, dreaming of upgrades...

Time is the only thing I think that will help here, I think your doing good and have a plan and if your fish are healthy and corals look happy you shouldn't do much other than wait.

Although, I think leathers might be a little toxic when they are dying, you might want to look into that, read and research. I think most recommend carbon. I do not have personal experience with that one though. So def consult there.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

@sugar a question and then some suggestions.

You mention you stir the sand bed up. Next time you do that and the water clears up enough to grab a vial of water to test P04, see if you get a reading of phosphate. In my system I was lacking N & P and the only thing that worked was adding ESV Calcium Nitrate and Brightwell Neophos. My system was sucking up p04 like nobody's biz. The sand and rock was sucking it up like crazy. Nitrate didn't need to be dosed very much at all to hold a detectable reading.

I would-
-Leave the skimmer going as its not removing N & P as much as you think. It'll help buffer the PH so let it run.
-stop adding reefroids or you'll spur another dino outbreak 100%. Trust me as it will fuel dinos in your no N & P system.
-add nitrate
-add neophos till you get a reading and test every day. (you'll find that you'll be adding and adding and every day it'll fall back to zero) I had the same issue and had to dose 3x the daily amount so the next day I still got a reading.
-add your aminos but slowly. I just dose 4 drops once a week to NOT fuel the uglies.
-add live phyto daily
-do not feed more, you'll turn the tank into a toilet if you do.
-neophos is your friend!
-have a bottle of microbactor 7 and microbactor clean on hand.
-do not use MB7 as it will eat up the Nitrate and a sliver of po4.
-once things turn around then add the bacteria to help clean things up.

You'll notice that one day the p04 will be high, so then stop dosing and test every other day. The system should suck up some p04 and then hold for a while then it will probably drop off again. Then do the recommended dose and things should stabilize shortly after.

As for the GHA and if its on a rock that can be removed, then pull it out and drop Hydrogen peroxide on the GHA and let it sit for a couple min and then pop it back into the tank. The GHA will die off and the next day be gone. don't worry about the left over peroxide entering the water as it wont harm anything. If anything the skimmer will become turbo charged for a short while so dial it back or leave it be.

Good luck and happy reefing