Calcium Reactor Automation

[vetteguy53081]

I vote no.
To every action is a reaction and the CO2 and flow rate needs to be for me constant for accurate monitoring and distribution. I will not tune up a car per se that is running good

 

[markstubb]

I think some of the evangelicalism of just tuning a carx and letting it run verses having some form of automation being ‘bad’ and ‘please don’t do this’ is a bit misleading. If someone wants to tinker with their carx and let their controller run it, then who are you to say othwrwise? If they are growing coral and are enjoying the hobby, is that not the more important thing? Just because you have decades of experience doing one thing doesn’t mean you can just blankly wipe technology out of the picture for someone that wants to do it differently.

 

[McDam]

Thanks everyone.

The feedback is awesome. But basically you are all hitting the nail on the head. I am testing out a new solution for exactly all of the above.

The concept is basically using continuous dosing pumps to regulate and maintain CO2, instead of valves and solenoids, to maintain a consistent pH in the reactor. And by doing so you can maintain a steady, predictable dKH, which has been my assumption and concept for a while now, but was coincidentally proven today in this fine BRS video. So weird.



By using a controllable dosing pump, and yes sorry to say @jda, it is controlled via an apex, I can regulate the calcium reactor pH down to the 100th degree by some simple programming functions within the apex.

(it also handles step changes if a set-point change is desired)

Unfortunately, monitoring and using pH on the front-side is not a very good way of controlling a reactor, but it is all that most people have available to them.

In an ideal world, there would be an effluent dKh tester, not the current front-side reading and monitoring. You could then have two dials... one to control the effluent rate (like now) and another to control the effluent dKh. That way, you could set the effluent dKh to about 25ish and then just turn the effluent dial to meet your tank's demand.

Another cool feature would be testing the raw co2 coming in to the reactor and then leaving. A well-run reactor should not have much, if any, co2 leaving the chamber and tank pH should just barely be affected.

In the olden days, cost was the only reason that people did not use CaRx. This is not as huge of a deal these days with dosers being as much as they are. There are also a lot of videos and somewhat false narratives that you can just let your Apex control your CaRx, which are mostly made/spoken by people who are new to the whole thing - please, nobody do this.

So like you said, instead of two dials we have two dosing pumps. We basically have one pump that is adjustable and controllable maintaining a steady pH, therefore steady dKH, and a second pump maintaining a consistent effluent flow rate to match the tanks demand. Not using two dials, but the concept is the same. You have full control of both through Apex fusion. With the proper reactor, which is completely the users choice, you should have CO2 re-circulation which should reduce the CO2 in the effluent. Mind you I am using a reactor for testing that isn't even meant to be a calcium reactor and I have seen the total opposite of a pH reduction from CO2 in the effluent. My pH has never been higher. Even compared to when using kalkwasser. But I drip effluent into my refugium and my cheato has exploded consuming all the CO2.

Profilux 4 allows you to control your CaRX if you have the KH Director. Essentially you set your desired Alk level and the boundaries that you will allow the KH Director to control the reactor and than if the measured kh is below your target it will automatically lower the pH inside the reactor to increase potency and if its higher it will increase the pH (with a solenoid obviously).

This may even have the added benefit of increasing your reactor pH at night (Alk and Cal consumption at night is almost zero) and lower during the day, not inly keeping kH levels stable but also improving your tank pH at night.

As a concept it is interesting.

With alk monitoring on the way, "Trident", you would also be able to add conditions for this to increase or decrease the effluent flow depending on the feed back. But this wouldn't be a requirement, it would just be the next level. You could still achieve the same result by doing manual tests and setting times and flow rates, then test again and adjust. Trial and error, but achieve the same result.

An if so why hasn’t it been done.

Sadly automaton is not cheap. It’s what I do for a living.

This is correct, and coincidentally I also work in Industrial automation. But if we can take advantage of the equipment we already have in place, instead of buying a complete setup(reactor,controller,pH probes, Solenoids, valves, regulators) all in one shot, we save a bundle. The pumps I have would run in the price range equivalent to the kamoer, and possibly less than the Neptune dose, or an electronic CO2 regulator. Only two cables. One for power, the other to the apex.

There are however certain conditions. You would need to have an apex or a controller with a pH probe for the reactor. You would need to be able to regulate the pressure form the CO2 to 10 psi or less and have it be consistent. And have a reactor, feed pump, recirc pump etc.. setup already.

Simply connect the first pump from the CO2 cylinder/regulator to the reactor, and the second pump from the effluent of the reactor to the sump/aquarium. You may be able to eliminate the feed pump as well, depending on the reactor.

I’ve no idea what the dastaco costs since I’ve been using the same unit since 1997, thus not in the market for a replacement; but with a little care it’s quite easy to dial in less complicated reactors.

You could still use your 21 yo unit.

I vote no.
To every action is a reaction and the CO2 and flow rate needs to be for me constant for accurate monitoring and distribution. I will not tune up a car per se that is running good

That is the great part, with using a measuring dosing pump. The flow is absolutely consistent. Yet also variable to maintain an exact ph. So as the pH of the water coming in fluctuates throughout the day it adjusts. If the flow rate demand changes, it adjusts. Always keeping pH consistent and therefor dKH constant and effluent constant.

So mainly I wanted to ask because the majority of feedback from calcium reactor users is that they are not open to new concepts. I believe mainly since they put all the hard work and effort into figuring these things out and setting them up in the first place. And hey, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
I get that. But I have just been playing around with this idea, and now I have it running on my tank. It is working greater than expected, and I am just looking for a way to share the concept and break the mold, just a little bit.

The transition would be very basic. Especially if you are already running a calcium reactor. Simply measure dKH of effluent, and ml/min of existing setup, then connect pumps, program apex, and set it to match the dkH and flow rate that you previously measured.

I am not looking to mass produce these devices or anything, just wanting to share.

 

[McDam]

I think some of the evangelicalism of just tuning a carx and letting it run verses having some form of automation being ‘bad’ and ‘please don’t do this’ is a bit misleading. If someone wants to tinker with their carx and let their controller run it, then who are you to say othwrwise? If they are growing coral and are enjoying the hobby, is that not the more important thing? Just because you have decades of experience doing one thing doesn’t mean you can just blankly wipe technology out of the picture for someone that wants to do it differently.

Thank you ;Happy

 

[ca1ore]

I think some of the evangelicalism of just tuning a carx and letting it run verses having some form of automation being ‘bad’ and ‘please don’t do this’ is a bit misleading. If someone wants to tinker with their carx and let their controller run it, then who are you to say othwrwise? If they are growing coral and are enjoying the hobby, is that not the more important thing? Just because you have decades of experience doing one thing doesn’t mean you can just blankly wipe technology out of the picture for someone that wants to do it differently.

If you want to rely on automation, go for it. I don’t see anyone here saying that it is necessarily bad, just that there may be better ways to achieve the stated goals. The problem, which you may not fully appreciate, is that much of the automation available for reef tanks is hobby grade quality. I’d be most wary of relying on even a lab grade pH probe attached to apex or the titration tests from something like a Triton to trigger actions. I get that most people have neither the skills nor the resources to adapt industrial PLCs for their tanks, but that’s where reliability gets good enough.

I use apex, and have more modules than most, but in the majority they are for monitoring and alerting. Strikes me as the more prudent approach.

 

[markstubb]

There's not much of a difference between calling something bad and outright saying to not do it. I do not use automation to control my equipment, I use it to safeguard it. I'm fully aware of the apex's shortcomings, which always seem to come to light during non steady-state conditions. I mostly use my apex to control non-critical life support functions and then to monitor, and intervene when necessary, certain life support functions.

For instance, I have an alkatronic and a carx. I have everything dialed in to the point where the ph in the reactor only varies by .02 all day, and my dKH is quite consistent. The apex will only intervene with the carx and shut off the co2 solenoid if dKH goes too high. If dKH goes too low (or too high), I get the alert and manually intervene. I don't control the steady state pH of the carx (or the dosing speed), with anything controlled by the apex.

I don't have the desire to set up a PLC just for an aquarium. Too much squeeze required for very little juice. The apex, while not perfect, gets the job done.

I'm in agreement with you though, the apex is good for monitoring and alerting, which is my main use case. The only things I automate it are things that, if not done, aren't life support critical (water changes, refilling ATO, etc)

@McDam I assume you're controlling those dosers with a 0-10v port? Custom interface?

 

[ca1ore]

I don’t think it’s that CaRX users are not open to new or better ways to run a unit - just that the continuous CO2/effluent approach works really well and is very stable. I am unclear how you would use a dosing pump for CO2 in place of valves and solenoids? You’d need some form of regulator to get down to 10 psi. Controlling to 0.01 pH is great, as long as the probes are both accurate and precise. Not sure that they actually are. Fully agree that using a continuous duty peristaltic pump on the effluent is a good thing to do. Are there pumps that can be speed controlled by apex (as opposed to just ON/OFF)?

Unclear to me that you’d want to be able to vary both C02/pH and effluent rate. I would think (and the BRS video bears this out) that you’d just vary pH and keep effluent constant.

Anyhow, interested to see what you find.

 

[VJV]

Well, in my tank i get about a 0,5dKh swing between 8am (before lights on) and 11pm (after moonlights for about 2h).

 

[2una]

Are there pumps that can be speed controlled by apex (as opposed to just ON/OFF)?

You don't have to change the speed, you can change the flow rate, there's what i have for my slowest & fastest flow rates on a fixed 4.2L/h peri on my carx now

OSC 000:00/000:49/002:30 Then ON
If Time 03:59 to 00:00 Then OFF

OSC 000:00/009:40/002:00 Then ON
If Time 18:00 to 12:30 Then OFF

The masterflex i believe can be hooked up to vary speed tho

 

[2una]

Simply connect the first pump from the CO2 cylinder/regulator to the reactor, and the second pump from the effluent of the reactor to the sump/aquarium. You may be able to eliminate the feed pump as well, depending on the reactor.

I'm struggling to wrap my head around what your doing here
1 side i understand - the peri pumping the effluent but for what reason are you pumping co2 when it can be done under pressure without pumping it?
Essentially what difference are you achieving doing that versus setting the apex/carx ph to say 6.5 & letting it be controlled that way with a solenoid?

With a normal style carx i would think raising or lowering your carx ph during differant hours would achieve a more flat line daily result yes, so this is what your doing?
Fixed flow rate with carx ph being varied?

I'm over on the opposite camp with dastaco with float controlled/saturated co2 level so lets say fixed ph of 6.0...but here i'm varying flow, more output lights on time & less output lights off time.

 

[McDam]

There's not much of a difference between calling something bad and outright saying to not do it. I do not use automation to control my equipment, I use it to safeguard it. I'm fully aware of the apex's shortcomings, which always seem to come to light during non steady-state conditions. I mostly use my apex to control non-critical life support functions and then to monitor, and intervene when necessary, certain life support functions.

For instance, I have an alkatronic and a carx. I have everything dialed in to the point where the ph in the reactor only varies by .02 all day, and my dKH is quite consistent. The apex will only intervene with the carx and shut off the co2 solenoid if dKH goes too high. If dKH goes too low (or too high), I get the alert and manually intervene. I don't control the steady state pH of the carx (or the dosing speed), with anything controlled by the apex.

I don't have the desire to set up a PLC just for an aquarium. Too much squeeze required for very little juice. The apex, while not perfect, gets the job done.

I'm in agreement with you though, the apex is good for monitoring and alerting, which is my main use case. The only things I automate it are things that, if not done, aren't life support critical (water changes, refilling ATO, etc)

@McDam I assume you're controlling those dosers with a 0-10v port? Custom interface?

I disagree slightly. I do know that the APEX is simply hobby grade, it would not be cost effective otherwise and neptune has done a great job at finding that balance, but I still believe there is untapped and underutilized potential. I am not so concerned about the accuracy of the pH probe and do not rely on it, its repeatability that matters and I have yet to see my pH probe drift enough to be significant. The ph probe really just gives you a starting point. From my experience an average pH of ~6.7 gives an effluent dKH of ~25 so this is what I target. You can get better saturation at a lower ph but my opinion is that it's not an efficient use of CO2 and you will run out faster. Pick a desired pH to give you the required effluent dKH. Target that ph and then Test effluent. If it is close enough, leave it there. If it is still not at the prefered dkH lower the pH setpoint more. Once the desired dKH is reached it doesn't really matter what the pH actually is or what the probe is reading. What does matter is that you can consistently keep it at that pH level, and by doing so inherently maintaining a very consistent effluent dkH. If you just set a buble rate then the CO2 is just constant and the pH inside the reactor will fluctuate with the overall systems pH, this inherently causes effluent dKH to fluctuate as well.

Yes the V1/V2 port is used for control. One port with two control signals. Making it compatible with both classic and new Apex.

I don’t think it’s that CaRX users are not open to new or better ways to run a unit - just that the continuous CO2/effluent approach works really well and is very stable. I am unclear how you would use a dosing pump for CO2 in place of valves and solenoids? You’d need some form of regulator to get down to 10 psi. Controlling to 0.01 pH is great, as long as the probes are both accurate and precise. Not sure that they actually are. Fully agree that using a continuous duty peristaltic pump on the effluent is a good thing to do. Are there pumps that can be speed controlled by apex (as opposed to just ON/OFF)?

Unclear to me that you’d want to be able to vary both C02/pH and effluent rate. I would think (and the BRS video bears this out) that you’d just vary pH and keep effluent constant.

Anyhow, interested to see what you find.

By using the peri pump to regulate CO2 you can vary the CO2 flow to maintain a constant reactor pH throughout the daily system pH swings. keeping things more stable, which is key in this hobby. Not that conventional calcium reactors can not do this but this just does it a little better. It pumps at a very slow rate, depending on the system and reactor. Running at roughly 4-5 rpm/min and speed varies 1-2% up and down to maintain ph, where as a valve/solenoid setup is just constant, or pulsing, this is able to react to the feedback from the pH probe and adjust for the daily variances. The peri pump can handle pressurised CO2 and essentially does the same thing as a conventional set up but the CO2 supply is controlled, regulated, measured and doesn't require tweaking to keep a consistent bubble rate over time. Also it is independent of supply pressure, as you run out of CO2 and pressure is reduced, you will not have to increase or adjust the valves to keep a consistent bubble rate, it would do it automatically, Also you will not have CO2 dump at the end of CO2 tank, it will simply keep pulling until the cylinder is practically under vacuum at which point it would no longer be able to maintain the pH and you can have an alarm to notify you. Plus you would realize/visualize it is getting low as you could see the pump has to run faster in order to maintain said pH. You could also set this as a notification indicating it is time to get more CO2

The effluent rate once set would Typically remain constant, as with a normal continuous duty pari pump setup. Where control of this comes in handy is to vary the output upon daily swings, reduce output if you are away from home and something happens, or whatever else floats your boat. It just opens up more options and instead of having to be physically at the pump turning a dial, you have remote access and a nice little trackable number that gives you the warm and fuzzies. If you have an alktronic or alk monitoring, in the future, you may be able to have it adjust the effluent output based on hourly reading, or just simply adjust output long term since you have achieved the ultimate stability and your corals are exploding and using up more Alk/Cal requiring a higher effluent flow. Without user intervention or testing. A dreamer's dream.

So over all the concept is to adjust the CO2 flow rate to achieve a desired ph, and you could just leave it there. Then adjust the effluent pump for that desired flow rate and just leave it there. All done. Similar to using a regular continuous dosing pump on each or the same as a conventional setup. It's really no different, just another method of achieving the same result. Just using a peri pump to do it instead of relying on pressure and finicky valving.... Ooooor take it a step further (which I have done) and program the ports to slow the pump down if reactor pH goes down and speed it up if ph goes high, regulating the reactor ph and dKH. And all the while the ability to monitor it and control it if ever need be. Is there really that big of a difference in the end? Maybe not? But for me it was just cooler, easier, and didn't require me to buy all the additional valving, solenoid, CO2 controller, bubble counter etc, therefore cheaper.

I'm struggling to wrap my head around what your doing here
1 side i understand - the peri pumping the effluent but for what reason are you pumping co2 when it can be done under pressure without pumping it?
Essentially what difference are you achieving doing that versus setting the apex/carx ph to say 6.5 & letting it be controlled that way with a solenoid?

With a normal style carx i would think raising or lowering your carx ph during different hours would achieve a more flat line daily result yes, so this is what your doing?
Fixed flow rate with carx ph being varied?

I'm over on the opposite camp with dastaco with float controlled/saturated co2 level so lets say fixed ph of 6.0...but here i'm varying flow, more output lights on time & less output lights off time.

The difference being you eliminate the cycling. It is always consistent and you won't have to set an on/off time generating these cycles. Not that it doesn't work, it just achieves a greater stability.
I wouldn't exactly call it pumping per say either as it is not pulling or pushing but simply just allowing small amounts of CO2 to pass as the pump rotates. It's just a more controlled rate of flow from the pressurised side to the reactor. Like a very small and fast solenoid opening and closing rapidly and only allowing a set volume of CO2 through while holding back the pressurized CO2.

Hopefully that clears up some of the misunderstanding, if not let me know. Any questions, ask away and I will do my best. I believe I have another video demonstrating the CO2 flow and variability. I will try and post that tonight.

 

[ca1ore]

You don't have to change the speed, you can change the flow rate, there's what i have for my slowest & fastest flow rates on a fixed 4.2L/h peri on my CaRx now.

So you are switching it on and off? I wouldn't want to do that - it's better the way I have it already. Being able to dynamically adjust the speed of a peri pump to maintain a precise pH would be cool though.

 

[2una]

So you are switching it on and off? I wouldn't want to do that - it's better the way I have it already. Being able to dynamically adjust the speed of a peri pump to maintain a precise pH would be cool though.

with the OSC yes , even if fitted to the dastaco control unit they go on/off all day too tho

 

[markstubb]

@McDam how is it that you are able to vary the speed of the peri pump in relation to pH without variables in the apex code stack? That, by far, is one of the biggest drawbacks to the apex ecosystem. If there were user defined global variables, you could do a LOT of cool crap on the apex. As it sits today it's a and/or operand against perceived values, rather than user defined values based on those perceived values.

 

[jda]

This all seems to me like a different way of doing the same thing... front-side pH based operation. If it is better, then cool. The next big thing will be constant effluent dKh monitoring and making adjustments from that.

FWIW - there is a full-scale J2EE and Ruby controller code at GitHub. You need to install MySQL and ubuntu type of bash. It ran on MacMini, backed it's self up to AWS with alerting if either side went down - there is code for both sides...bash, java, ruby. It had a two-of-three object for any input - even with a trio of $250 pH probes, they were still all over the place and not reliable. You could delete the app from the Mac and it would restore it's self and start working again within about a minute. I gave up on it years ago after I figured out that I got nothing actionable from it and I never once ssh'd into the machine to look at anything... and I was sick of paying for AWS just for this. You can do whatever you want with, but it is real code, not the pseudo-programming that you do in an apex. This would be easy for any enterprise-class software engineer to get going, but they also could probably write their own in a few days.

 

[McDam]

The next big thing will be constant effluent dKh monitoring and making adjustments from that.

This is essentially what we are trying to achieve assuming a given pH will constantly result in a given dKh. From the BRS video it does seem somewhat linear through the average usable pH range, so we can "assume" that by maintaining the ph as consistent as possible we are effectively controlling the effluent dKh. But knowing the dKH of effluent still wont allow you to react to changes in the dysplay dkH. Thats where the alk/cal monitors come into play.

Being able to dynamically adjust the speed of a peri pump to maintain a precise pH would be cool though.

Precisely !!

@McDam how is it that you are able to vary the speed of the peri pump in relation to pH without variables in the apex code stack? That, by far, is one of the biggest drawbacks to the apex ecosystem. If there were user defined global variables, you could do a LOT of cool crap on the apex. As it sits today it's a and/or operand against perceived values, rather than user defined values based on those perceived values.

Yes it is still very limited and a lot could be done with simple variables and basic math functions, So I just work with what I got. But it is basically functioning like a proportional controller with a little bit of integral. Using three basic ramp Profiles you can create a proportional change based on if ph is higher or lower than the setpoint. Then have it slowly ramp in the direction of change you want, to correct for any error that the proportional change did not correct. Then once back in range go back to steady state. It's actually a lot simpler than it sounds. Took me little bit of initial tuning (about 5 min) to figure out working ramp rates but for using what apex has to offer, I'd say it works surprisingly well. I am hoping that if this draws enough attention and we can prove it is worth changing the way we control things that Neptune could add a simple function for control giving the user another wizard similar to the other Fusion functions where a setpoint could be entered and possibly a couple gain values, or they could even have set gain values based on what it is controlling(ie.. pH, flow, light), choose input and output and the rest would be history. This would be very useful for a lot of their other modules and equipment also, such as controlling lighting levels based on their PAR module, or controling COR pump flow based on their flow modules. I figure it's just a matter of time.

 

[jda]

This is essentially what we are trying to achieve assuming a given pH will constantly result in a given dKh.

This is a huge assumption and one that you can just make now without all of this gear... just set a good regulator and it will stay at that pH on it's own and you can just assume that the output dKh is the same.

This sounds OK for the folks who don't want to figure out how to tune a reactor - a better version of what they have now, maybe? These are a subset of the actual users - most learn eventually when they see the issues with pH control over time. I would caution you not to expect too many people who know how to tune a reactor to buy any of this to do the same thing a different way - a tuned reactor with good equipment is a VERY reliable beast.

 

[coralbeauties]

I watched this video on you tube on adjusting ca reactors and I have been using it with great success for several years now. Dead nuts simple. Basically set your drip rate so that it is a steady drip just under a stream. control your co2 output/ ph in the reactor with your controller. Now start monitoring your dkh levels daily till you get it adjusted for consistency. Start at say a ph of 7 with your apex. If your dkh drops then you need to lower your ph setting in your apex. Just keep adjusting your ph level till you get a consistent dkh reading each day. No worries about counting bubbles or drips. Check it out.

Jeff

 

[McDam]

I watched this video on you tube on adjusting ca reactors and I have been using it with great success for several years now. Dead nuts simple. Basically set your drip rate so that it is a steady drip just under a stream. control your co2 output/ ph in the reactor with your controller. Now start monitoring your dkh levels daily till you get it adjusted for consistency. Start at say a ph of 7 with your apex. If your dkh drops then you need to lower your ph setting in your apex. Just keep adjusting your ph level till you get a consistent dkh reading each day. No worries about counting bubbles or drips. Check it out.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Some of my concept actually stems from watching this video a year or so ago. Yes basically the same concept applies.

 

[McDam]

This may help. If a picture's worth a thousand words, a video is infinite.
Demonstrating the range and control-ability of using a low flow continuous duty peristaltic pump to does CO2 for calcium reactor.