Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is also my experience.

Since you haven’t seen the video. A big selling point to people is that saturated solutions like Sodiumcarbonat mixes )that many companies use) cause precipitations and shows this by having about 5L of Saltwater in a beaker and adds multiple ml of that. Ofc it precipitates (wasn’t stirred) and then he tests the same with bicarbonate and nothing happens.
These precipitations claimed to be the reason for Old tank Syndrom/depots in the tank.
At the end he filters these precipitations out and adds some acid to show that they are „Calciumcarbonat etc“

The argument that this is not how you would dose sodiumcarbonat solutions but rather very slowly over the course of the day so you don’t get pH spikes which would cause precipitation is countered with „The chemistry is always the same but If dosed slowly into a high flow area you make it even worse because smaller precipitation binds even more“

Well, that’s certainly a reason some folks do choose bicarbonate, but that’s certainly not a cause of old tank syndrome.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm little confused but it seems to raise though

Adding any alkalinity has an initial pH effect, and then a longer term effect as the aquarium sucks in or blows off CO2.

 

[Garf]

Interesting read. I have to say the only thing that crossed my mind was the whole light situation. Mother nature doesn't use a switch to turn on, off, the lights. It is sunrise, sunset. So I don't get the light burst....

Maybe their thought is that most corals are aquaculture now and don't know the difference. However if one is trying to spawn acropora lighting, schedules, and temps are a real thing.

Oh well - back to the regularly scheduled debate.

My halides never had a ramp up, lol. Sounds to me that light can be attributed with any positive effects with this method. 100% (whatever that means) for 11 or 12 hours is a lot.

 

[DutchReefer420]

My halides never had a ramp up, lol. Sounds to me that light can be attributed with any positive effects with this method. 100% (whatever that means) for 11 or 12 hours is a lot.

We all did the on and off thing long before we had al the fancy dimming options and sliders

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

atleast for me it was clear from the english video last week, that they said ''its not the Bicarbonaat directly raising the PH''

The FM pdf makes all sorts of clearly false claims, but since no one is trying to defend those, then I suggest we focus on what bolus dosing might accomplish and how that might explain someone’s improved coral growth.

Bolus dosing just before the light cycle will put the maximum alk just at the start of the light cycle.

Depending on what is dosed and what it is compared to, that might also make the pH higher late in the light cycle.

Both higher pH and higher alk are “known” to boost hard coral growth.

Thus, if the effect is from pH or alk or both it is certainly plausibly better than some other dosing scenarios.

But if that is the explanation, why not target higher alk or higher pH? There are loads of ways to accomplish both.

 

[DutchReefer420]

The FM pdf makes all sorts of clearly false claims, but since no one is trying to defend those

Certainly not trying to defend those claims!!

to be honest had hardly read the pdf before this thread

 

[areefer01]

My halides never had a ramp up, lol. Sounds to me that light can be attributed with any positive effects with this method. 100% (whatever that means) for 11 or 12 hours is a lot.

No, they didn't. Neither did mine. I guess my point is that they are frontloading light which is odd to me. I understand their principle is to frontload everything so maybe that is why...

 

[Pod_01]

Dosing bicarbonate (or carbonate or hydroxide) instantly boosts alkalinity, and instantly changes pH based on what exactly you dosed. There is no lag in these processes beyond what is needed to mix it into the full tank volume.

Randy, related and maybe unrelated question.
When on occasions in my reef tank I corrected my Alk with bicarbonate i did observe a lag.
For example I dosed 0.5 dKh and used my KH Director and only portion of it showed up. Later the other missing portion showed up.

I re-read your article and I was like “oh well” wrong device, bad regent etc... but I have seen this more than enough times that I like to understand why I see the lag. So far I kept my mouth shut because what I see makes no sense based on what I read.

Now I am experimenting with Bolus and here is a sample Kh reading that I get:

So I take measurement just before dosing 6am and it was 7.3dkh, I dose about 1.3dkh and I take measurement every 6 hours and at noon - 7.5 dKh, 6pm - 7.6 dKh and midnight I got 7.3dkh…

Again odd behaviour, I would have expected spike and gradual decrease over the day.

I been doing this for a week and I have yet to see the spike. Mixing can explain part of it…. Maybe bad KH director… Scratching my head here… Time to take out my 3 other KH testers so I can get completely confused.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In the lifestream last night it was brought up that if you Randy claim Bicarbonate doesn’t raise you should go learn chemistry again.
The Carbonate product also claims if 500g of it mixed in 5L of RO 20ml of the solution raises the alk by 1 in a 100L aquarium.

Lets explore that data.

To boost 100 L by 1 dKH (that the right unit of measure here?) With 20 mL, then that solution must contain 5,000 dKH.

5,000 dKH is 1,786 meq/L.

That would mean it is 1.786 M sodium bicarbonate, or 0.893 sodium carbonate (or some mix in between).

500 g of sodium bicarbonate (84 g/mole) in 5 L gives a molar concentration of 1.19 M.

500 g of sodium carbonate (106 g/mole) in 5 L gives a concentration of 0.94 M.

Thus, I do not know where this info came from, but it is consistent with sodium carbonate and not sodium bicarbonate being the solid used.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, related and maybe unrelated question.
When on occasions in my reef tank I corrected my Alk with bicarbonate i did observe a lag.
For example I dosed 0.5 dKh and used my KH Director and only portion of it showed up. Later the other missing portion showed up.

I re-read your article and I was like “oh well” wrong device, bad regent etc... but I have seen this more than enough times that I like to understand why I see the lag. So far I kept my mouth shut because what I see makes no sense based on what I read.

Now I am experimenting with Bolus and here is a sample Kh reading that I get:

So I take measurement just before dosing 6am and it was 7.3dkh, I dose about 1.3dkh and I take measurement every 6 hours and at noon - 7.5 dKh, 6pm - 7.6 dKh and midnight I got 7.3dkh…

Again odd behaviour, I would have expected spike and gradual decrease over the day.

I been doing this for a week and I have yet to see the spike. Mixing can explain part of it…. Maybe bad KH director… Scratching my head here… Time to take out my 3 other KH testers so I can get completely confused.

Thanks. Slow mixing in and test error could be the only reasons for a lag related to just dosing, although there may be other things impacting alk at the level of 0.1 dKH, such as changes in nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

yes i do at this moment!!
dont get me wrong, ive had bigger drops in DKH at first when starting this bolus methode
because i was under dosing it (not dosing enough DKH)
i worked my way up to the 2.5 DKH dose i run now

and im nor german nor a FM fan!!
i run my tanks as basic as possible and im normaly not the type who goes for some new gimmick!!
only because its free and i do not need to buy anything i tried it!

like i said i'm ready to give you all the facts i possibly can.
dosing amount and measurments with time and date

i just took a alk measurment and my alk is exactly the same as before me bolus dose this morning.

So this is boiling down to the idea that you dose 2.5 dKH in a bolus of bicarbonate every day, and yet never see alk vary more than 0.3 dKH from your target level?

How are you measuring alkalinity?

I just do not see any way that is possible.

 

[DutchReefer420]

So this is boiling down to the idea that you dose 2.5 dKH in a bolus of bicarbonate every day, and yet never see alk vary more than 0.3 dKH from your target level?

How are you measuring alkalinity?

I just do not see any way that is possible.

I have seen it drop more than the 0.3 DKH from my target level the first few days i started the bolus and needed to ramp up my doses, maybe even as high as 0.7 or 1 DKH when i was clearly under dosing.

for now i am still slowly raising my dosage every few days, and for the past few weeks its scary stable
the only drop i can measure is just before the new dose and its like 0.1 maybe 0.2.

ive stopped using automated tester because of the maintance to keep them accurate
so im back to the trusty salifert KH test, i did mention there could be a error like you mentioned of the 0.1 or 0.2 but its almost with al testers

its a fresh salifert box also
and after almost 10 years of doing salifert alk test by hand im confident in my test results and for sure looking for a trend going up or down

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have seen it drop more than the 0.3 DKH from my target level the first few days i started the bolus and needed to ramp up my doses, ,maybe even as high as 0.7 or 1 DKH when i was cleary under dosing

ive stopped using automated tester because of the maintance to keep them accurate
so im back to the trusty salifert KH test, i did mention there could be a error like you mentioned of the 0.1 or 0.2 but its almost with al testers

its a fresh salifert box also
and after almost 10 years of doing salifert alk test by hand im confident in my test results and for sure looking a trend going up or down

I just don’t understand what is happening.

What brand of sodium bicarbonate?

If you measure alk, dose 2.5 dKH of it, then measure alk again, it hardly changes at all?

 

[Hypnotize]

Lets explore that data.

To boost 100 L by 1 dKH (that the right unit of measure here?) With 20 mL, then that solution must contain 5,000 dKH.

5,000 dKH is 1,786 meq/L.

That would mean it is 1.786 M sodium bicarbonate, or 0.893 sodium carbonate (or some mix in between).

500 g of sodium bicarbonate (84 g/mole) in 5 L gives a molar concentration of 1.19 M.

500 g of sodium carbonate (106 g/mole) in 5 L gives a concentration of 0.94 M.

Thus, I do not know where this info came from, but it is consistent with sodium carbonate and not sodium bicarbonate being the solid used.

The info is straight of their homepage, as I said I was suspecting that the numbers didn’t add up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The info is straight of their homepage, as I said I was suspecting that the numbers didn’t add up.

Strange.

 

[DutchReefer420]

I just don’t understand what is happening.

What brand of sodium bicarbonate?

If you measure alk, dose 2.5 dKH of it, then measure alk again, it hardly changes at all?

Using the FM balling light

Tomorrow morning i will measure right before and right after the dose

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Using the FM balling light

Tomorrow morning i will measure right before and right after the dose

Ok. If that does not show the full alk addition, or close to it, I’d suggest making your own solution to try. I can give a recipe using grocery store baking soda that you may already have to ensure there’s not something wrong with the commercial fluid.

 

[Superlightman]

Fauna Marin clearly states that their Carbonate product only consists of Bicarbonate.
In the lifestream last night it was brought up that if you Randy claim Bicarbonate doesn’t raise you should go learn chemistry again.
The Carbonate product also claims if 500g of it mixed in 5L of RO 20ml of the solution raises the alk by 1 in a 100L aquarium.
I may be wrong but that would also indicate that it’s not possible to only be Bicarbonate or the product manuel is wrong.

this is where FM is not clear the question was asked him in what apps groups, he avoids them multiple time until he finally replied to some. The question was "why if it is only bicarbonate in the product it is written "carbonate mix" and how is it possible that if you check the ati equivalent calculator for example it shows that 100 ml ati plus= 359 ml of balling classic =200ml only of balling light, so how can it be possible hat just with bicarbonate inside if it is more concentrate than the balling which is already at the limit of the solubility? "
To that he answered that in the past he had a mix of 8% with something else, than now he has only bicarbonate as "a direct source of carbonate " and that how he manage such a solubility is his secret.

Then the question was asked why he not removes carbonate mix from the packaging if their is just one carbonate inside and if they are also other "indirect " sources inside as he seems to play with words . Wich he reply because "it is the name of the product and it is a mix and not a PUR product".

So one side he says it is only bicarbonate and same time he say it is a mix, that is confusing. He plays clearly with words and not want to say what is inside

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

this is where FM is not clear the question was asked him in what apps groups, he avoids them multiple time until he finally replied to some. The question was "why if it is only bicarbonate in the product it is written "carbonate mix" and how is it possible that if you check the ati equivalent calculator for example it shows that 100 ml ati plus= 359 ml of balling classic =200ml only of balling light, so how can it be possible hat just with bicarbonate inside if it is more concentrate than the balling which is already at the limit of the solubility? "
To that he answered that in the past he had a mix of 8% with something else, than now he has only bicarbonate as "a direct source of carbonate " and that how he manage such a solubility is his secret.

Then the question was asked why he not removes carbonate mix from the packaging if their is just one carbonate inside and if they are also other "indirect " sources inside as he seems to play with words . Wich he reply because "it is the name of the product and it is a mix and not a PUR product".

So one side he says it is only bicarbonate and same time he say it is a mix, that is confusing. He plays clearly with words and not want to say what is inside

If it is a mix it certainly could boost pH as the graph showed. A 1:1 mix would give a substantial pH boosting addition.

 

[Superlightman]

The question is does it work. A lot of people in germany tested this method and it does. You can see it by going in to german forums or just in the yt comment section of the videos from fm. not everybody uses dosing pumps. there are people that dose once a day by hand. one of the biggest public reef tanks in germany is dosing kh only once in the morning since 7 years and they have phenomal growth. its the nature museum in karlsruhe. there are many videos on yt where you can see their reef progessing. so imho its a nother discussion should it work, because it does. before attacking the idea maybee give it a chance instead of stating it shouldnt work because xyz.

Which, a lot of people? Not mislead people, I'm in their forum and what app groups also. For now, they are just a handful of people from their reefers club. Also, absolute no data before and after the method, no comparison, even no picture before/ after. And from the few people I saw pictures, some have started the tank with this method so here also, no comparison , and from the others, sorry to say that but not great tank and mostly beginners. So a big buzz and even nothing convincing to show other than his claim it works better at the corals farm.
For the Karlsruhe Aquarium, yes he has corals that growths , nothing special here also compared to other aquarium and showing bolus is superior.. And he not does bolus he seemingly just ad KH product every 3 days which Claude say it could be a "super Bolus..."

Every KH dosing method will growth corals. I'm not saying it not works, but I saw not a single fact for now proven it is superior to other methods other than claims, that Randy has proven to be wrong.

And increase your light and make a longer photoperiod, add elevate your kh and for sure you will get higher ph and coral growth he recognized . But this not prove anything special, this works with everything!