Bolus dosing

Randy Holmes-Farley

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sorry for me not being able to get this info in here
i think tis is exactly what FM was saying in there Video's

Maybe, but see the pdf document from them that I link and quote.
 

Hypnotize

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lol

It is both exactly theoretically and experimentally accurate to say that bicarbonate dosing lowers pH a small amount when first dosed.

I've tried it, and published the results long ago, and anyone challenging me should simply try it themselves.

Everyone has baking soda in their home. It should not take more than 2 minutes to try if you have a pH meter.


From it:

Alkalinity Supplements​

One of the most common issues that reefkeepers face involves supplementing alkalinity while maintaining a reasonable pH. Alkalinity supplements impact pH in a variety of ways. One of these ways is the immediate altering of the pH. Different alkalinity supplements have different immediate impacts on pH, as most reefkeepers are aware. This impact is why, for example, limewater needs to be added slowly to a tank but sodium bicarbonate does not.

For this discussion, let’s presume that we want to supplement the carbonate alkalinity of a reef tank. That is, in the end we want to increase the bicarbonate and carbonate levels in the tank. There are a variety of ways to achieve this end, and these different ways have different immediate impacts on pH. Three of these ways (and combinations thereof) are fairly common in reefkeeping. These ways are addition of bicarbonate, carbonate, and hydroxide. In a reef tank that is permitted to equilibrate its total CO2 levels with the atmosphere, these additions all end up with the same final pH. That is, it is only the amount of alkalinity added that determines the final pH, not the nature of the additive itself.

In the short term, however, the impact on pH is very different. To quantify this, I measured to pH change on adding 0.5 meq/L of each of these alkalinity supplements to freshly made salt water (Instant Ocean made to S=35; alkalinity measured to be 2.26 meq/L by titration). Here’s the result for the pH found immediately, and then after 24 and 120 hours of sitting, unstirred, in an open 500- mL beaker:

SupplementInitial pH24 hour pH120 hour pH
none8.108.118.21
0.5 meq/L HCO3-8.068.158.33
0.5 meq/L CO3–8.448.288.34
0.5 meq/L OH-8.768.478.33
0.5 meq/L H+6.917.918.15
From this data it is clear to see the large increase in pH caused by the addition of hydroxide, and also the significant increase when using carbonate. Bicarbonate, on the other hand, shows the expected slight decrease in pH, but not nearly as much as is found with a strong acid of equal concentration. It is also clear that after sufficient time to equilibrate with atmospheric CO2, these differences disappear, and the pH is the same for all of the 0.5-meq/L alkalinity additions. This is an important result: in seawater in equilibrium with the atmosphere, for a given alkalinity there is a single pH that results, regardless of what was added to get to that alkalinity.

Here’s how to think of these additions. When these chemicals are added to the water, there is a change in the relative concentrations of carbonate and bicarbonate, and it is the ratio of these two ions that determines the pH.
This is also my experience.

Since you haven’t seen the video. A big selling point to people is that saturated solutions like Sodiumcarbonat mixes )that many companies use) cause precipitations and shows this by having about 5L of Saltwater in a beaker and adds multiple ml of that. Ofc it precipitates (wasn’t stirred) and then he tests the same with bicarbonate and nothing happens.
These precipitations claimed to be the reason for Old tank Syndrom/depots in the tank.
At the end he filters these precipitations out and adds some acid to show that they are „Calciumcarbonat etc“

The argument that this is not how you would dose sodiumcarbonat solutions but rather very slowly over the course of the day so you don’t get pH spikes which would cause precipitation is countered with „The chemistry is always the same but If dosed slowly into a high flow area you make it even worse because smaller precipitation binds even more“
 

DutchReefer420

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They show a sharp rise on dosing and a slow rise from photosynthesis, they specifically state this as well. See what I posted.
well i can see your point looking at the graph and text!

The HTU is not exactly (if your very precise) the same as what they where saying in the video's,
on youtube they said ''first a slight drop in PH there after a raise boosted by the extra light''

''A slight PH drop after dosing''

is not a good selling point i suppose lol
 
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Hypnotize

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well i can see your point looking at the graph and text!

but the HTU is not exactly (if your very precise) the same as what they where saying in the video's,
on youtube they said first a slight drop in PH there after a raise boosted by the extra light
But he also says it’s the Bicarbonate raising the pH
 

Garf

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But he also says it’s the Bicarbonate raising the pH
Only in the sense that alkalinity increases tend to do that a little anyway. Photosynthesis is the major driver due to the inability of most tanks to fully equalise with CO2 in the air surrounding the aquarium.
 

Hypnotize

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Only in the sense that alkalinity increases tend to do that a little anyway. Photosynthesis is the major driver due to the inability of most tanks to fully equalise with CO2 in the air surrounding the aquarium.
That’s not what was said last night in the Bolus Livestream.
„the chemist claimed that you can’t raise your pH which bicarbonate, go head try it out then you will see what he actually discredited“
 

DutchReefer420

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That’s not what was said last night in the Bolus Livestream.
„the chemist claimed that you can’t raise your pH which bicarbonate, go head try it out then you will see what he actually discredited“
well its all in german... i would love to understand it fully, but me being your neighbours i can not even understand it all lol

translator?
 

Hypnotize

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well its all in german... i would love to understand it fully, but me being your neighbour i can not even understand it all lol

translator?
I translated what was said about the Bicarbonate pH point that „some chemist“ made on a forum post that it doesn’t raise pH and the anwer was…
„the chemist claimed that you can’t raise your pH which bicarbonate, go head try it out then you will see what he actually discredited“
So he says that it’s incorrect that it doesn’t raise pH and you can test it yourself.
 

Garf

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That’s not what was said last night in the Bolus Livestream.
„the chemist claimed that you can’t raise your pH which bicarbonate, go head try it out then you will see what he actually discredited“
Personally I'd listen to a chemist, not a carpenter for this type of advice. Now, if I wanted a table and chairs, I wouldn't ask Randy to make me some, for example.
 
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Domi

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I translated what was said about the Bicarbonate pH point that „some chemist“ made on a forum post that it doesn’t raise pH and the anwer was…

So he says that it’s incorrect that it doesn’t raise pH and you can test it yourself.
I also watched it for a while. But I just cannot stand it when he is bashing other people, products, the government, and whoever else. He often does this in his videos and interviews and it just puts me off.
 

Garf

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The argument that this is not how you would dose sodiumcarbonat solutions but rather very slowly over the course of the day so you don’t get pH spikes which would cause precipitation is countered with „The chemistry is always the same but If dosed slowly into a high flow area you make it even worse because smaller precipitation binds even more“
The problem here is that this process may be doing more good than harm. I use a version of the process to remove phosphate from the aquarium, for example. Does it take out other stuff? Maybe. Does everything look ok? Appears to be. I've also always used kalk.
 

twentyleagues

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I translated what was said about the Bicarbonate pH point that „some chemist“ made on a forum post that it doesn’t raise pH and the anwer was…

So he says that it’s incorrect that it doesn’t raise pH and you can test it yourself.
So I have read this A few times and I came to the conclusion they are saying the same thing unless something is being lost in translation.
Randy says bicarb does not raise ph
Guy on video says it can not raise ph
Am I missing something here?
 

DutchReefer420

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So I have read this A few times and I came to the conclusion they are saying the same thing unless something is being lost in translation.
Randy says bicarb does not raise ph
Guy on video says it can not raise ph
Am I missing something here?
yes exactly but the HTU tells you its the other way around
 

DutchReefer420

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Using Fauna Marin Balling Light carbonate, it is possible to raise the pH substantially just before the start of the photoperiod by dosing the entire daily requirement in one dose, this is the Bolus. The timing is very important as there is a chemical re-balancing that can take between 10-30 minutes, this should be the delay between the Bolus dose and the start of the photoperiod.

and this picture:
1717077003329.png
 

Hypnotize

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So I have read this A few times and I came to the conclusion they are saying the same thing unless something is being lost in translation.
Randy says bicarb does not raise ph
Guy on video says it can not raise ph
Am I missing something here?
No the guy in the video says in my words „if that chemist on the forum claims that bicarbonate doesn’t raise pH he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you (the viewers) can test that simply“

But as shown Randy did test it and proved that it doesn’t raise the pH
 

twentyleagues

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No the guy in the video says in my words „if that chemist on the forum claims that bicarbonate doesn’t raise pH he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you (the viewers) can test that simply“

But as shown Randy did test it and proved that it doesn’t raise the pH
Ok so the guy is saying it does raise ph. I guess I got confused.
 

DutchReefer420

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No the guy in the video says in my words „if that chemist on the forum claims that bicarbonate doesn’t raise pH he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and you (the viewers) can test that simply“
atleast for me it was clear from the english video last week, that they said ''its not the Bicarbonaat directly raising the PH''
 

areefer01

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Interesting read. I have to say the only thing that crossed my mind was the whole light situation. Mother nature doesn't use a switch to turn on, off, the lights. It is sunrise, sunset. So I don't get the light burst....

Maybe their thought is that most corals are aquaculture now and don't know the difference. However if one is trying to spawn acropora lighting, schedules, and temps are a real thing.

Oh well - back to the regularly scheduled debate.
 

chris_ek

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But as shown Randy did test it and proved that it doesn’t raise the pH
This is also from it:

Bicarbonate Addition​

The addition of bicarbonate as an alkalinity supplement is rather different. In this case, the bicarbonate partially dissociates into carbonate and H+, and the tank experiences an increase in bicarbonate and carbonate, and a drop in pH.:

15. HCO3– → H+ + CO3—

Consequently, the immediate effect on pH is for it to drop. The drop is small because not much of the bicarbonate dissociates at normal tank pH, but enough does to drive the pH a bit lower (from 8.10 to 8.06 in the experiment above).

In the long term, however, the effect is different. Since a substantial amount of bicarbonate was added and the pH did not change much, the tank is now overloaded with bicarbonate with respect to what it would normally have in equilibrium with air. Some of the bicarbonate picks up a proton, becomes carbonic acid, and the pH rises as the CO2 is blown off to the atmosphere:

16. HCO3– + H+ → H2CO3 → CO2 + H2O

In the experiment above, this effect has caused the pH to rise from 8.06 to 8.33. So the long-term effect of bicarbonate addition (as it is for any addition to carbonate alkalinity) is to raise pH even though the short-term effect was to lower it.
I'm little confused but it seems to raise though
 

DutchReefer420

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Interesting read. I have to say the only thing that crossed my mind was the whole light situation. Mother nature doesn't use a switch to turn on, off, the lights. It is sunrise, sunset. So I don't get the light burst....

Maybe their thought is that most corals are aquaculture now and don't know the difference. However if one is trying to spawn acropora lighting, schedules, and temps are a real thing.

Oh well - back to the regularly scheduled debate.
FM says

The sun is way more powerfull then the lights we put over our tanks
 
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