Same here. Waiting to get ICP results to see trace element difference versus AFR.
Bolus dosing
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danimal1211
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Do either product tell you the dosage for each element other than calcium and alk?
Fauna Marin has an online calculator although IMO every system is going to be different and I am finding that the demand for Ca and Mg is lower than the calculator estimates. Trace elements are mixed in with Ca and Alk so I am curious to see the ICP results because if the demand for Ca is lower then logically (to me anyway) the trace elements may not meet demand.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Perhaps because they misunderstand (overestimate) the potency of their alk supplement, they might match the calcium and magnesium to that overestimate, and thus overestimate the demand for them.
areefer01
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Not directed at you per say but wondering if anyone has brought this to their attention or asked for clarification? It would seem to me someone in this thread that is using, or testing it, would raise it to their attention and see what their response is.
It is just a question after all and not a knock on it.
Not sure how much it matters because in the end you are going to dose the amount that gets you to whatever your kh target is. The question then is around the minor trace elements that are mixed in. That's where an ICP test should add clarity.
ReneReef
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Don't know if this was mentioned or not, but to make things more complicated the concentrations of FM's dosing components are not matched to each other at all.
Apart from the 100 grams of sodium bicarbonate per liter, the Balling Light instructions state to mix 2kg of calcium chloride dihydrate in RODI water to make 5 liters of fluid for dosing calcium. And to use 2kg of magnesium chloride hexahydrate to make 5 liters of fluid for dosing magnesium.
If I’m not mistaken this means that one needs to dose roughly 4.5 times less of the calcium solution than the KH solution.
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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You are right that is certainly nowhere close to 1:1.
The entire concept is based on testing and not even considering blindly dosing balanced amounts because it won't work long-term anyway and needs adjustment in many cases
If one of your tests reads low, you dial that channel of the pump up, if one of them reads high you dial that channel down. Eventually you get equilibrium, not necessarily at "balanced" amounts though, not every consumer in the tank follows the mathematical balanced model of consumption
Balanced dosing is only relevant if you only test for one of the values and dose the others without testing, isn't it?
ReneReef
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I found the calculator here:
I filled it in to find that the calculator suggest the following should be the case:
- 9.0909 mL of the Calcium solution should contain exactly 1 gram of Calcium.
- 20.000 mL of the Magnesium solution should contain exactly 1 gram of Magnesium.
400 grams per liter of Calcium chloride dihydrate contains 109.045 grams/L of Calcium.
9.1705 mL of that solution contains 1 gram of Calcium.
The FM calculator is underestimating the calcium dose by ~0.88%.
400 grams per liter of Magnesium chloride hexahydrate contains 47.821 grams/L of Magnesium.
20.911 mL of that solution contains 1gram of Magnesium.
The FM calculator is underestimating the magnesium dose by ~0.46%
Sound about right?
No huge discrepancies there if you ask me.
At least nowhere near the 50% alk overestimation.
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ReneReef
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Yes, yes, I know how Balling Light works, I have used it for many years.
Regarding relevance: when discussing a method, it is very relevant for all participants to know if it's balanced or not.
Most methods aim to be balanced. FM is an odd one out in that regard.
Reading through the last couple of pages of this thread it seemed to me that not everyone was aware and some confusion existed.
My remarks were merely meant to get everybody on the same page.
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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Can you clarify what you meant by:
“Fauna Marin has an online calculator although IMO every system is going to be different and I am finding that the demand for Ca and Mg is lower than the calculator estimates.”
I assumed you meant a calcium demand based on actual alk consumption. How else can a calculator calculate demand?
The calculator mentioned above. Found it rather useless other than a starting point. As mentioned above, adjustments will need to be made , like with dosing most anything, to reach targeted parameters especially when one person may want 7.5 alk and another 10.5. I found that the amounts that the calculator specified for Ca and Mg gave me Ca of about 475 and Mg at 1450.
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Ok, I’m not understanding the issue. It is a simple dosing calculator. You are just suggesting that it didn’t give the expected values after dosing? Maybe the testing was off by a bit or the volume estimate.
Didn't get a reply;
Question about Balling Light
On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product ". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."...
www.reef2reef.com
As i post before - I start an experiment with the light regime of the Bolus method. Today my KH director break down and it is critical for my experiment. I will go back to my light and dose schedule this evening. I have not decide if I should get a new KH director or not. I have demount my old an does some investigations of it - its an internal leak somewhere- Its possible that the electronics are damaged. It warned for internal leak and stop working. It was water in it but haven't found the leak yet and the equipment is in the oven - no rice this time
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
Here are my UNSCIENTIFIC observations versus their claims after roughly 45 days on their system
Fauna Marin Claims:
1.PH improvement: My response would be yes and no. Ph has gradually improved from a consistent 7.8 to 8.2. However, it is not at its peak at the beginning of the photoperiod as claimed. It starts at 7.9 goes up to 8.0 within 2 hours and the is at 8.2 by 5 hours into the photoperiod. This has been gradual. Did not reach the 8.2 mark until 1 week into the process but it has level off at a consistent 8.2.
2. Increased coral growth: Purely anecdotal response is that yes there does appear to be substantially increased coral growth and coloration as described by Mike Paletta. Obviously, it is difficult to know how much of this is due to increased PAR, change in lighting schedule, FM supplied ingredients or combination of all the above. Best guess is that it is likely most or even all is due to the lighting intensity increase of almost 50%.
3. Maximize photosynthesis during the early stages of the photoperiod: Seems obvious that this is likely although impossible, at least for me, to quantify.
4. Improve system stability: My translation: Will the ICP tests show fewer trace element deficiencies and will PH stabilize at a higher number than before testing started? ICP tests show somewhat improved results versus when using AFR and Kalk which consistently showed 4 elements above the recommended range and several somewhat elevated. An Oceamo ICP 30 days in only showed Strontium as high and no others significantly elevated. Prior to Bolus there were consistently 5 trace elements that were consistently deficient. Post Bolus there were 2 (Vanadium and Fluoride) although neither were anywhere near undetectable.
As far as the big three are concerned, Kh, Ca and Mg have all stayed within desired ranges of 8.5 - 8.7, 435-450 and 1320 -1350.
System: 180 Gal, Dominant SPS. Lights: 3 Straton Pros and 2 Orphek OR 4 Bars
Very interested to see your, likely far more scientifically credible, results Lasse.
Fauna Marin Claims:
1.PH improvement: My response would be yes and no. Ph has gradually improved from a consistent 7.8 to 8.2. However, it is not at its peak at the beginning of the photoperiod as claimed. It starts at 7.9 goes up to 8.0 within 2 hours and the is at 8.2 by 5 hours into the photoperiod. This has been gradual. Did not reach the 8.2 mark until 1 week into the process but it has level off at a consistent 8.2.
2. Increased coral growth: Purely anecdotal response is that yes there does appear to be substantially increased coral growth and coloration as described by Mike Paletta. Obviously, it is difficult to know how much of this is due to increased PAR, change in lighting schedule, FM supplied ingredients or combination of all the above. Best guess is that it is likely most or even all is due to the lighting intensity increase of almost 50%.
3. Maximize photosynthesis during the early stages of the photoperiod: Seems obvious that this is likely although impossible, at least for me, to quantify.
4. Improve system stability: My translation: Will the ICP tests show fewer trace element deficiencies and will PH stabilize at a higher number than before testing started? ICP tests show somewhat improved results versus when using AFR and Kalk which consistently showed 4 elements above the recommended range and several somewhat elevated. An Oceamo ICP 30 days in only showed Strontium as high and no others significantly elevated. Prior to Bolus there were consistently 5 trace elements that were consistently deficient. Post Bolus there were 2 (Vanadium and Fluoride) although neither were anywhere near undetectable.
As far as the big three are concerned, Kh, Ca and Mg have all stayed within desired ranges of 8.5 - 8.7, 435-450 and 1320 -1350.
System: 180 Gal, Dominant SPS. Lights: 3 Straton Pros and 2 Orphek OR 4 Bars
Very interested to see your, likely far more scientifically credible, results Lasse.
Purposely no pictures and general observations. Very aware that the more specific I would get the more some would consider it a challenge to dispute them. I am not here to advocate for or against. Just stating my thoughts.
You have to wait - I had too much adjusting to do - I have not get any liable result. My KH director is caput - I have to go back to my original dosing (static) and normal Light scenario till I have fixed this - either a new or reparing this old one.
Sincerely Lasse
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