Bolus dosing

[twentyleagues]

Been lurking here and read through all the pages. If there was not a noticeable improvement in coral health after testing for about 2 years as they say, why go on a campaign promoting it if it doesn't show noticeable improvement?

I do think they are going over the top with the explanations and rather than saying they do not yet understand why and need help by the scientific community to better understand they seem to be making up words and throwing out theories as possibly fact. They also claim to have many customers on the Bolus method. Where is the data from more users and why do we have to beg for it?

I am glad I looked into the Bolus method as I learned a few things about alkalinity dosing I never paid attention to before. Looking back my best tanks with the least problems ran on bicarbonate. Anecdotal yes but do not think we should dismiss any aspect of possible new methods because the delivery was questionable.

The problem is with your first question Noticeable improvement in coral health compared to what and how?

 

[Moe K]

Just off their claims. They are both coral farmers with multiple years of experience are they not? Multiple times they claim a higher up take in alkalinity and faster growth. Even Mike Paletta reported the same.

 

[twentyleagues]

Just off their claims. They are both coral farmers with multiple years of experience are they not? Multiple times they claim a higher up take in alkalinity and faster growth. Even Mike Paletta reported the same.

The problem is that is subjective. We also dont know what that is actually compared to. Maybe the change in their light schedule was the cause "super charging" photo synthesis causing higher ph and better growth this bolus dose may not even matter. They dont know and neither do the scientists that know this stuff. Did they test the lighting change on their previous dosing method? Maybe that would do something more amazing. I also though that alk leveled out along with ph which to me does not indicate higher uptake. I am not knocking you or what you said this is some of the push back in this thread. What are they comparing it to and how?

 

[Moe K]

The problem is that is subjective. We also dont know what that is actually compared to. Maybe the change in their light schedule was the cause "super charging" photo synthesis causing higher ph and better growth this bolus dose may not even matter. They dont know and neither do the scientists that know this stuff. Did they test the lighting change on their previous dosing method? Maybe that would do something more amazing. I also though that alk leveled out along with ph which to me does not indicate higher uptake. I am not knocking you or what you said this is some of the push back in this thread. What are they comparing it to and how?

That is true. I would just expect their years of experience would be able to tell the difference between placebo and actual results. I watched all the videos and not going to lie, I was caught in and thinking about trying it but looking into it further there is no reason to switch. The data is seriously lacking. The only thing I am thinking now though is to switch to bicarbonate and see if I see any improvement for myself off that alone. Not necessarily going to bolus dose but will adjust the lighting as they recommend. It will be a long while though as I have to finish a gallon of my current alk supplement first.

 

[ReneReef]

The problem is that is subjective. We also dont know what that is actually compared to. Maybe the change in their light schedule was the cause "super charging" photo synthesis causing higher ph and better growth this bolus dose may not even matter. They dont know and neither do the scientists that know this stuff. Did they test the lighting change on their previous dosing method? Maybe that would do something more amazing. I also though that alk leveled out along with ph which to me does not indicate higher uptake. I am not knocking you or what you said this is some of the push back in this thread. What are they comparing it to and how?

Exactly, and without providing evidence this boils down to an argument of authority. “We have many years of experience and we noticed something so everyone should trust that to be true.”

This of course is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Bottomline, all their claims have been debunked. The limited data that was supplied has been explained otherwise. A major fault in their product description has been uncovered along the way. And now they simply have no valid argument left.

If they actually spend two years testing, the only thing remarkable about this all is them managing to expertly waste two years of time.

 

[Moe K]

The "Moelus method"

Step 1 - Switch to bicarbonate. Disconnect kalk reactor.
Step 2 - Dose bicarbonate at peak demand in as many micro doses the doser allows. Destroy "buffer battery"!
Step 3. Run recirculating CO2 scrubber at night to stabilize ph.

Seriously though. This is the plan.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The "Moelus method"

Step 1 - Switch to bicarbonate. Disconnect kalk reactor.
Step 2 - Dose bicarbonate at peak demand in as many micro doses the doser allows. Destroy "buffer battery"!
Step 3. Run recirculating CO2 scrubber at night to stabilize ph.

Seriously though. This is the plan.

Sounds good. What criteria are being monitored for success or not?

 

[Moe K]

Just general observation of dosing uptake, coral color, water clarity, ph/alk stability, icp testing. The usual.

 

[GlassMunky]

All this talk about carbonate vs bicarbonate has me thinking…
@Randy Holmes-Farley What form of alkalinity is being provided to the tank when a calcium reactor is being used?
Its calcium carbonate skeleton being broken down by carbonic acid but I dunno if that just breaks it back into carbonate form or not?


Ignoring the ph lowering effects, I remember ALOT of big SPS tanks being run on them in the early 2000s.

 

[ReneReef]

Just general observation of dosing uptake, coral color, water clarity, ph/alk stability, icp testing. The usual.

And a hundred times more thorough than FM’s approach ever was
You won’t be wasting time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All this talk about carbonate vs bicarbonate has me thinking…
@Randy Holmes-Farley What form of alkalinity is being provided to the tank when a calcium reactor is being used?
Its calcium carbonate skeleton being broken down by carbonic acid but I dunno if that just breaks it back into carbonate form or not?


Ignoring the ph lowering effects, I remember ALOT of big SPS tanks being run on them in the early 2000s.

It adds mostly bicarbonate and a tiny bit of carbonate.

Once in the tank, any alk additive has provided bicarbonate and carbonate, with the final ratio determined just by the pH, not by how it came in.

 

[Moe K]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around this topic of what happens with alk additives when added. Can this be something similar to the situation where we are noticing it might be more beneficial to dose ammonia rather than nitrate for the corals. In the way that adding bicarbonate might just skip a process as opposed to just adding carbonate that is then converted to bicarbonate? Or do I have that backwards?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around this topic of what happens with alk additives when added. Can this be something similar to the situation where we are noticing it might be more beneficial to dose ammonia rather than nitrate for the corals. In the way that adding bicarbonate might just skip a process as opposed to just adding carbonate that is then converted to bicarbonate? Or do I have that backwards?

No, the various alk additives (bicarbonate, carbonate, and hydroxide) are in complete and near instantaneous equilibrium with the ratio between them depending only on pH (with very small effects from temp and salinity).

The various forms are all in their fixed ratio (depending on pH) in a very tiny fraction of a second.

There are differences in pH that can cause other effects, but the alk additives retain no memory of where they came from.

 

[GlassMunky]

No, the various alk additives (bicarbonate, carbonate, and hydroxide) are in complete and near instantaneous equilibrium with the ratio between them depending only on pH (with very small effects from temp and salinity).

The various forms are all in their fixed ratio (depending on pH) in a very tiny fraction of a second.

There are differences in pH that can cause other effects, but the alk additives retain no memory of where they came from.

Could you explain a little more about how ph affects that ratio?
Like does a higher ph shift the ratio towards more carbonate or something like that?

Does that ratio even matter in reality?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could you explain a little more about how ph affects that ratio?
Like does a higher ph shift the ratio towards more carbonate or something like that?

Does that ratio even matter in reality?

Yes, higher pH means more carbonate and less bicarbonate. Hydroxide rises with pH, but is always much lower than bicarbonate and carbonate at any reef tank pH.

Wikipedia has a graph here:

Bjerrum plot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ingchr1]

So… I’ve skimmed most of the thread here. What got my attention here were the original claims around pH. That’s my biggest battle in my particular tank. I’m running a large skimmer, outside airline, AND a CO2 scrubber and at night I still drop into the 8.1-8.15 territory, and during the day will rocket up to 8.45 where I have my skimmer set to cut off. (Interestingly I don’t seem to have as big a problem with a frag tank and a smaller nano.)

I started dosing Kalk at night instead of two part, to get the pH benefit. I originally dosed it the way Chris Meckley describes (dose saturated Kalk until pH is above 8.29) and that works well, until we leave the house. Then dosing amounts drop dramatically because pH remains high. I’m also not thrilled with keeping a 20gal vat next to the tank. I’ve also found it much less stable than consistently dosing 2 part on a regular schedule.

The scrubber works ok, again until we leave the house for the weekend and pH goes through the roof. Then I have to contend with the diminishing returns as media exhausts.

So the claims that going with this bolus method helps stabilize pH while also being able to get rid of Kalk and the scrubber, seemed awesome.

I’m gathering that everyone had pretty well believes that to be a fairy tale? Has anyone actually conformed this doesn’t work or are we still mostly arguing about semantics on how this has been described and what FM chose to say in their videos?

Sounds like you are going through a lot of effort that you are not too thrilled with to maintain a stable/in range pH.

How has it benefited your tank vice just dosing two part on a regular schedule?

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Wait... do we know when corals use alk? From my perspective it seems like it's constant, not a when lights are on or off thing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wait... do we know when corals use alk? From my perspective it seems like it's constant, not a when lights are on or off thing.

Many folks with controllers report it is mostly during the day. Whether that is from light, higher pH, or some of each is not known, IMO.

 

[Garf]

Claude has released a vid in a field, that appears to combine the "Bolus" thread with the "Ammonia is our friend" thread;

 

[Jari]

Claude has released a vid in a field, that appears to combine the "Bolus" thread with the "Ammonia is our friend" thread;