Bolus dosing

[carbl]

A great polyp extension have often been seen as a good sign and a sign of wellbeing. IMO *** needs not to be that way. Many people see the polyp extension as a sign of a healthy coral that seek food. IMO - with photosynthetic coral doing this under daytime - food hunt is probably not the main reason why the extend their polyps.

A few months ago I listened to a podcast from a well-known manufacturer of supply products in Germany (“Sangokai”). The owner is a doctor of marine biology specializing in coral ecophysiology. He also said that the polyp extension is NOT a reliable indicator of whether the coral is doing well or not.

 

[twentyleagues]

A few months ago I listened to a podcast from a well-known manufacturer of supply products in Germany (“Sangokai”). The owner is a doctor of marine biology specializing in coral ecophysiology. He also said that the polyp extension is NOT a reliable indicator of whether the coral is doing well or not.

A great polyp extension have often been seen as a good sign and a sign of wellbeing. IMO it needs not to be that way. Many people see the polyp extension as a sign of a healthy coral that seek food. IMO - with photosynthetic coral doing this under daytime - food hunt is probably not the main reason why the extend their polyps. Thin skinned SPS has one great problem in high light environment. The photosynthesis is high and hence the production of harmful oxygen species, They need to be rid of the produced oxygen as fast as possible. The only way out for the oxygen is a diffusion from the corals into the water. The rate of this diffusion is depended of the area of the interface between the coral and the water and the concentration difference of oxygen between coral and water. The concentration difference can´t the coral control but it can control the area of the interface by extend their polyps (SPS) or swelling the body (many LPS and soft corals). IMO - this is the main reason for polyp extension during daytime for photosynthetic corals.


I will state that this is my own conclusion

Sincerely Lasse

I have often wondered on this subject. Its been years since I had a acro tank, during that time I had good growth and color but quite a few had little to no polyp extension compared to others of the same coral I had seen. Many people told me something was wrong. But growth was good and color was also good. Played around with flow, tried bumping ph, feeding, lighting was very high 3x250w mh and what amounted to 6 t5. I dont remember where alk, ph, calc were exactly but within 8s for ph and alk and 400+ calc. I have started dabbling in to acros again so far so good growth, color, polyp extension on most( maybe not such a good thing lol?). Just thought this idea was interesting and timing for me was perfect.

 

[SliceGolfer]

 

[carbl]

I watched the video. Summary: FM knows exactly what is being reported in the forums. Claude has responded to some of the allegations on his own initiative without being asked directly.
Otherwise, lots of technical terms and the usual “seawater chemistry is different from normal (freshwater) chemistry. What a chemist does in a beaker (by which he probably means Randy's colleague who tested the carbonate mix) has nothing to do with what happens in the aquarium. You have to know about it.
etc. etc.
I'm tired of listening to all this again and again. These videos are made for his followers.
It's okay, we have many alternative realities these days.
I'm glad there are still independent forums where all kinds of people discuss our hobby without commercial interest.

 

[areefer01]

I'm tired of listening to all this again and again. These videos are made for his followers.

In all fairness this is true for all socialites and their content. Subscribers, likes, patreons, sponsors, swag, and more but this we all know. I think any one of us can pull up a product and see market speak like it promotes coral growth, or color pop, or engineered to grow a thriving reef. A lot of squinting and I'd guess a new hobbyist doesn't know any better so pics whatever is the loudest and brightest.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Until they bring on someone like Mr Paletta who ads credence to the claims by relating his experience with it while at the same time having no financial skin in the game. Should still base results on measurable criteria and not a quote like" it grows my corals better".

 

[areefer01]

Until they bring on someone like Mr Paletta who ads credence to the claims by relating his experience with it while at the same time having no financial skin in the game. Should still base results on measurable criteria and not a quote like" it grows my corals better".

Is this our gold standard?

 

[rtparty]

Is this our gold standard?

I sure hope not

 

[Doctorgori]

After all 50 pages, here is a refresher on “ The Dunning Krueger Effect “

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities

From Wikipedia. (Thank you Terrance Howard) LOL

 

[Doctorgori]

Not to abuse the post count (@Mo.) but did I just read 52 pages challenging the vids claims on Bolus dosing and FM hasn’t shown up even once?

BTW not sure if watching that vid was any less painfully than reading all 53 pages here LOL

Or did Fauna Marin in lieu of showing up actually send in AI syncopates with a Terrance Howard/Michio Kaku hybrid interface ?

edited

 

[carbl]

Not to abuse the post count (@Mo.) but did I just read 52 pages challenging the vids claims on Bolus dosing and FM hasn’t shown up even once?

That's quite funny. Claude likes to mention names, who he knows all over the world. But when it comes to criticism here, he only ever talks about "a chemist from the USA". He's never mentioned Randy by name and that's strange because Randy is quite well known.
Keeping quiet and letting it pass is probably the best strategy.

BTW not sure if watching that vid was any less painfully than reading all 53 pages here LOL

Claude can be very funny and entertaining. And of course he also has a lot of knowledge and experience. But when it comes to his products, he always has the right answer. He says in the video that there are a lot of different bicarbonates and he has an extremely good quality. It's not just baking soda. He has tested a lot, even with cheaper products, but he always ends up with the expensive ones. And that's the case with every product. It always contains something or is of super duper quality. This naturally unsettles a certain number of people who order these ingredients on the internet.

He also maintains that hydroxides and carbonates lead to precipitation. Here he uses terms and processes that only a chemist would be able to classify. But to the outside world (called follower), it looks very competent. And it can be, but normal people can't understand it. And he doesn't discuss it publicly with those who have a clue.
He also defends the broken buffer system. It is merely a descriptive term, whatever he means by it. In addition to chemical processes, physical and kinetic effects must also be taken into account in the aquarium. I'm sure almost nobody knows exactly what is meant by this. But it sounds important.
I can only take it seriously if he opens himself up to discussion.

 

[GARRIGA]

After all 50 pages, here is a refresher on “ The Dunning Krueger Effect “

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities

From Wikipedia. (Thank you Terrance Howard) LOL

Works for me sleeping better at night

 

[Superlightman]

That's quite funny. Claude likes to mention names, who he knows all over the world. But when it comes to criticism here, he only ever talks about "a chemist from the USA". He's never mentioned Randy by name and that's strange because Randy is quite well known.
Keeping quiet and letting it pass is probably the best strategy.


Claude can be very funny and entertaining. And of course he also has a lot of knowledge and experience. But when it comes to his products, he always has the right answer. He says in the video that there are a lot of different bicarbonates and he has an extremely good quality. It's not just baking soda. He has tested a lot, even with cheaper products, but he always ends up with the expensive ones. And that's the case with every product. It always contains something or is of super duper quality. This naturally unsettles a certain number of people who order these ingredients on the internet.

He also maintains that hydroxides and carbonates lead to precipitation. Here he uses terms and processes that only a chemist would be able to classify. But to the outside world (called follower), it looks very competent. And it can be, but normal people can't understand it. And he doesn't discuss it publicly with those who have a clue.
He also defends the broken buffer system. It is merely a descriptive term, whatever he means by it. In addition to chemical processes, physical and kinetic effects must also be taken into account in the aquarium. I'm sure almost nobody knows exactly what is meant by this. But it sounds important.
I can only take it seriously if he opens himself up to discussion.

for sure, none of the manufacturer going to say the contrary, they all want to sell their products and avoid that people do the mix themselves. It is sad that Claude never address clearly the points ,just say others are wrong and not understand it. If he is really in the truth, it would be probably good for him and bring him new customer, so why just not answer or explain it better? I don't get the point to not explay it? Or maybe it is just marketing claim and so for sure he will not do it?

 

[GARRIGA]

Aren't we still waiting on Vibrant to address concerns raised therefore might be a longtime coming before this gets addressed and all claim secret formula just like Coca Cola.

 

[twentyleagues]

for sure, none of the manufacturer going to say the contrary, they all want to sell their products and avoid that people do the mix themselves. It is sad that Claude never address clearly the points ,just say others are wrong and not understand it. If he is really in the truth, it would be probably good for him and bring him new customer, so why just not answer or explain it better? I don't get the point to not explay it? Or maybe it is just marketing claim and so for sure he will not do it?

I think this here is "our" issue with it the not precise info on why it is what it is and why if it does work. Randy had to get people on it to show its not at the potency claimed. Maybe that is on purpose but they dont address it. Other factors also.

 

[elysics]

In German they uploaded a second pdf supposedly explaining how it works, not on English though

Basically rehashes the argument that the initial dose produces a huge amount of carbonic acid, which accounts for the "missing" dkh, and as the pH rises over the course of the day, turns back into bicarbonate

not much in the formula or graphing department though, except for similar pH curves as there were already

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

You know, all of this could probably be resolved by them just stating. "It's a convenient single dose in a day that is not going to cause too dangerous of a PH swing or percipitation in the same way dosing all of your hydroxide in one dose would. Why burn money on dosing pumps when you can take convenience that works!"

I think that covers the bennefits of the product, convenience and simplicity. They don't need to /shouldn't try to argue that it's "better" than calculated stability without proof.

It looks more like they designed the product/method to work for people who hand dose their stuff, but wanted to steer the higher tech market into the fold on the method.


This is of course assuming that it does not precipitate, or cause a wild PH swing that would close up a kenya tree for a week. But if it in fact works, why be silly when you know there are trusted people who will be critical of it and hurt your credibility when there is something to market here.


Before I made my own dosing pumps, trying to dose soda ash was a pain in the butt at my rate of consumption. It wasn't that high, but 15ml all at once would gunk stuff up, so I had to make a dripper to try and handle my dose 1 time a day out of a oxygen humidifier and airline fittings. If I was marketed this product I might have done that because high end dosing pumps are too out of the question for me.

Edit: I am making a lot of assumptions here based on my experience and what I've gathered about bolus from this thread. Grain of salt etc etc

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Basically rehashes the argument that the initial dose produces a huge amount of carbonic acid, which accounts for the "missing" dkh, and as the pH rises over the course of the day, turns back into bicarbonate

which, of course, is not accurate chemistry by any stretch.

Add bicarbonate, all the alk is there instantly.

Some dissociates into H+ and carbonate, which is an alk neutral process. That is the pH lowering effect.

HCO3- --> H+ + CO3--

(HCO3- is 1 alk; H+ is -1 alk, carbonate is +2 alk; overall change is zero alk)

Some of that H+ combines with more bicarbonate to produce carbonic acid in an alk neutral process.

H+ + HCO3- --> H2CO3

(H+ is -1 alk, HCO3- is +1 alk; carbonic acid is zero alk; overall change is zero alk)

Result is increased carbonic acid, increased bicarbonate and increased carbonate. Alk is identical to that immediately after dosing.

System may have excess CO2 now and may blow it off, raising pH and leaving alk unchanged.

H2CO3 --> CO2 (blows off) + H2O
(no alk from any of these)

Photosynthesis is an alk neutral process that consumes CO2/carbonic acid. It cannot increase alk, but it does increase pH by consuming CO2:

6CO2 + 6H2O → C6H12O6 + 6O2

(no alk from any of these, but CO2 is removed)

The CO2 removal raises pH by removing carbonic acid/CO2.

H2CO3 --> CO2 (consumed by photosynthesis) + H2O

There is thus less H2CO3 (carbonic acid) and the equilibrium below shifts to the side consumed (by le Chatliers Principle) in an alk neutral process

H2CO3 <--> H+ + HCO3-
(carbonic acid no alk; H+ -1 alk + HCO3- +1 alk; overall zero alk change)


That last sentence in the quote, about turning carbonic acid into bicarbonate, seems to be their misunderstanding of alkalinity (at least as recounted here. Yes, photosynthesis does that conversion. No, it does not (cannot) raise alkalinity because that conversion also produces H+ (a negative alkalinity contributor).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Without needing these equations, one can simply rely on The Principle of Conservation of Alkalinity described by Pankow in the textbook "Aquatic Chemistry Concepts”, 1991.

He shows mathematically that the total alkalinity of a sample CANNOT be changed by adding or subtracting CO2 (which is what photosynthesis does). There is an old article available on line, which claims otherwise, and encourages people to “lower alkalinity” by adding CO2 in the form of seltzer water. This is simply incorrect.

Forgetting the math for the moment (although anyone doubting this established principle is encouraged to look up the original book) it is easy to see how this must be the case. If carbonic acid is added to any aqueous sample with a measurable alkalinity, what can happen?

Well, the carbonic acid can release protons:

H2CO3 ==> H+ + HCO3–

HCO3– ==> H+ + CO3—

These protons can go on to reduce alkalinity by combining with something that is in the sample that provides alkalinity (carbonate, bicarbonate, borate, phosphate, etc). However, for every proton that leaves the carbonic acid and reduces alkalinity, a new bicarbonate or carbonate ion is formed that adds to alkalinity, and the net change in total alkalinity is exactly zero. The pH will change, and the speciation of the things contributing to alkalinity will change, but not the total alkalinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You know, all of this could probably be resolved by them just stating. "It's a convenient single dose in a day that is not going to cause too dangerous of a PH swing or percipitation in the same way dosing all of your hydroxide in one dose would. Why burn money on dosing pumps when you can take convenience that works!"

If that was the claim, it is a fine opinion to express and does not violate any notions of accepted science.