Bolus dosing

[BeanAnimal]

If this produced excess of CO2 is not vented out of the aquarium (if the CO2 content in the surrounding air is low enough) or is not taken up by photosynthesis it will accumulate in the water and result in very low pH but the alkalinity can stoll be good. The best example of this is long transports of fish in plastic bags. I have measured pH levels below 6.4 in such water after 48 hours of transport. However, the alkalinity is still good. If you open the bag - take the fish out just in case - aerate the water, the pH will rise to the level corresponding to the current CO2 equilibrium between water and ambient air.

Sincerely Lasse

See my recent post in this forum...

pH - daily up-down (lights on - lights off)
We went out of town for a week and the pH very visibly went way up and stayed that way until the day I got home. It was also very cyclically stable!

I was stunned (honestly) at both the rise and the stability without me, she and the 8 paws in the house.

Dosing is 20 times per day or so (1ml per dose) of Triton Core (other methods). Not that it is relevant, but I don't want anybody to think this has anything to do with bolus or broken buffers. It is Just a graphic illustration of your last post.

My Alk did drop just a bit (dose remained the same) --- presumably due to a bit better growth at the higher pH... or was it being wasted as precipitate I am home and it did not rise so....

 

[Oldreefer44]

Going by their description of the ideal system for this methodology, my tank is the perfect fit. Long established with a continual struggle keeping PH at optimal levels currently using primarily Kalk. So I'll give it a try and being a natural skeptic, will be happy to report in from time to time.

 

[Lasse]

In the video - Mike Paletta make a huge importance of external feeding of stony corals with zooxanthellae especially in the wild and that we never can get that growth rate in aquarium. I do not agree with that. IMO - Corals with zooxanthella are primary not hunters - they are farmers even if they can hunt now and than. Corals without zooxanthellae on the other hand - they are exclusive hunters. Hence we can get the same growth rate in aquarium as in the wild without external feeding more than the particles that our normal feed produce.

Normally - our stony corals have an asexuell vegetative growth. However they are able of sexual propagation and their gametes contain a lot of lipids. External feeding may or may be not be critical for forming of eggs and sperm (gametes)

Please see this post in my build thread there I compare growth rate of azooxanthellate and zooxanthellate hard corals in my aquarium,

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KGV]

I think paletta must be one of the most overrated reefers out there. Never seen anything much insightful coming from him outside the ordinary. Doesn’t know chemistry and too little biology, yet everyone reveres him.

 

[Garf]

there is no large consumption between 00:36 and 06:36.

Been messing with nighttime consumption myself this week, appears dark calcification is driven by respiration and reliant on adequate water flow and oxygenation. Water column pH doesn't play a significant role during this period. My nighttime calcification is 0.4 Dkh for what it's worth.

 

[Garf]

With regard to "bolus" I found this disturbance in the force;

"Our calicoblastic cell pHi data suggest that despite constant seawater pH, changes in seawater carbonate chemistry may disturb calicoblastic cell pHi regulation, which may impair the ability of this cell layer to regulate pHCF"

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2016.1669

 

[ingchr1]

Been messing with nighttime consumption myself this week, appears dark calcification is driven by respiration and reliant on adequate water flow and oxygenation. Water column pH doesn't play a significant role during this period. My nighttime calcification is 0.4 Dkh for what it's worth.

What percent is this of your overall consumption?

 

[Lasse]

I have start a new thread for my results - here

This because this will be a long period of measurements - the ones I have done the last days (with rising dKH) seems to contradict my earlier result of dKH "consumption" during night time. This thread should concentrate on the Bolus dosing instead

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Garf]

What percent is this of your overall consumption?

30% ish. Stayed awake for 24 hrs testing it, every hour with a salifert kit using double the standard reagents, quite revealing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Been messing with nighttime consumption myself this week, appears dark calcification is driven by respiration and reliant on adequate water flow and oxygenation. Water column pH doesn't play a significant role during this period. My nighttime calcification is 0.4 Dkh for what it's worth.

Thanks for testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

30% ish. Stayed awake for 24 hrs testing it, every hour with a salifert kit using double the standard reagents, quite revealing.

Hyperbole, I hope?

 

[Garf]

Hyperbole, I hope?

Every hour, on the dot, including Alk, pH and temperature. Ive not got a fancy tester

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Every hour, on the dot, including Alk, pH and temperature. Ive not got a fancy tester

Wow, that’s dedication!

 

[djf91]

See my recent post in this forum...

pH - daily up-down (lights on - lights off)
We went out of town for a week and the pH very visibly went way up and stayed that way until the day I got home. It was also very cyclically stable!

I was stunned (honestly) at both the rise and the stability without me, she and the 8 paws in the house.

Dosing is 20 times per day or so (1ml per dose) of Triton Core (other methods). Not that it is relevant, but I don't want anybody to think this has anything to do with bolus or broken buffers. It is Just a graphic illustration of your last post.

My Alk did drop just a bit (dose remained the same) --- presumably due to a bit better growth at the higher pH... or was it being wasted as precipitate I am home and it did not rise so....

I experience the same thing with pH every time I go out of town. Tank looks great when I return home I assume because of this reason. Not sure how to fix this though, too hot to keep the windows open during the summer here in Missouri.

 

[Lasse]

Not sure how to fix this though, too hot to keep the windows open during the summer here in Missouri.

You can use a CO2 scrubber or as I do for the moment - take the skimmer air from the outside

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Superlightman]

Probably just coincidence, but July 2, three weeks ago , when I posted the above question in the Fauna Marin forum here at reef2Reef was literally the last time FM Support signed onto Reef2Reef. Consequently, they have not answered yet.

He doesn't seem to want to discuss with you. Already prior to this, in a German what app group when this all started , someone challenge him to answer you.
He said that it make no sense for him to exchange with you as he experienced it in the past already. He says he knows what error you do and wait to see if you find the answer yourself. Furthermore, he told also that you not have an aquarium since over 10 years and that what he knows was already outdated in 2000. He also said he had a discussion with you about Iodine with you in the past and you think it is not necessary ...

So I think he is probably not willing to exchange for now, what is really damage as, his customers deserves real answer particularly to the missing dosages.

 

[Superlightman]

Since 2 months, I do a Bolus like method with Bicarbonate and a very small part of carbonate.
I mix 400gr Bicarbonate and 68 gr carbonate in 5L water.
I started the method by first rising the light and the alks as, I want to see what makes the PH higher, as expected the PH went higher.
Dosing all at one time seemed not to have any influence on the PH for me and I still need to add a CO2 scrubber to start the day over 8,2 , without I'm more or less around 8. So I'm still skeptical about the effect of the one time dosing.

I can not really say if it is better than before or not, it seems to be the same, just I lost a bit fluo in the corals. Maybe a bit better polyp extension on some corals(but as it is on corals which were on the recovery road from a problem, it could be normal and not bolus related).

Interesting observation I read in a German what app group that a coral breeder and another guy which has a great reef tanks, said that with this method they observe a greater polyps extension day time with also the central polyp that comes out, but they lost fluo and colors in the corals. Which I found interesting has it could match my observation also.

When I dose it, I see all time a small PH drop and then the rise continues again. You can see it in the graph.
If other measurements are needed , I can provide them if it helps to understand this whole story.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

He doesn't seem to want to discuss with you. Already prior to this, in a German what app group when this all started , someone challenge him to answer you.
He said that it make no sense for him to exchange with you as he experienced it in the past already. He says he knows what error you do and wait to see if you find the answer yourself. Furthermore, he told also that you not have an aquarium since over 10 years and that what he knows was already outdated in 2000. He also said he had a discussion with you about Iodine with you in the past and you think it is not necessary ...

So I think he is probably not willing to exchange for now, what is really damage as, his customers deserves real answer particularly to the missing dosages.

That’s fine, although those reasons are ridiculous. In any case, my post to the FM forum was for anyone from FM (I did not expect it was him anyway who posted there) to simply explain what they meant by something, and was not a challenge about any claim.

 

[Lasse]

said that with this method they observe a greater polyps extension day time with also the central polyp that comes out,

A great polyp extension have often been seen as a good sign and a sign of wellbeing. IMO it needs not to be that way. Many people see the polyp extension as a sign of a healthy coral that seek food. IMO - with photosynthetic coral doing this under daytime - food hunt is probably not the main reason why the extend their polyps. Thin skinned SPS has one great problem in high light environment. The photosynthesis is high and hence the production of harmful oxygen species, They need to be rid of the produced oxygen as fast as possible. The only way out for the oxygen is a diffusion from the corals into the water. The rate of this diffusion is depended of the area of the interface between the coral and the water and the concentration difference of oxygen between coral and water. The concentration difference can´t the coral control but it can control the area of the interface by extend their polyps (SPS) or swelling the body (many LPS and soft corals). IMO - this is the main reason for polyp extension during daytime for photosynthetic corals.


I will state that this is my own conclusion

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since my comments in this thread are spread out over many posts, I thought it might be worthwhile to summarize them here.

1. I don’t have any strong opinion on what values of alkalinity and pH result in the best balance of properties for corals to thrive, and with many different endpoints being discussed (color, growth, polyp extension, perhaps others) and many different species of corals being considered, as well as impacts of these changes on growth of other organisms, such as macroalgae that themselves impact properties relating to corals (such as pH, O2, nutrients, trace elements, etc.) there may be as many different perceived optimal combinations of properties as there are reef aquarists.

2. Before the advent of alk controllers, I did not assume that highly stable alk was particularly important, as long as it was the same every day. I posted that many, many times. Then later, many people getting such controllers claimed a clear improvement in their tank, but I do not know how much of that was real and how much a placebo effect spurred by manufacturer claims.

3. My opinion without proof is that it seems unlikely that a coral will thrive better when the alkalinity is suddenly jerked upward in the morning than if the alkalinity is kept stable at the same peak alkalinity. But maybe they like that. Or maybe, like it or not, it impacts things like polyp extension.

4. My opinion without proof is that it seems unlikely that a coral will thrive better when the pH is suddenly jerked upward in the morning than if the pH is kept stable at the same peak pH. But maybe they like that. Or maybe, like it or not, it impacts things like polyp extension.

5. When making claims about a method, it is, obviously, critical to make it clear what that method is being compared to, and with what endpoints. A comparison of bolus dosing to stabilized alk needs to make it clear what alk level is used, and what pH. Is it compared to stable alk at the alk level before the bolus, or after, or something in between. Same for pH. Or is just being "good enough" the criteria? Bolus dosing is obviously good enough, and has been for decades, but is it better than something else? Better than what? Better than everything else? That last claim would seem to require significant evidence, of which I have not seen.

6. There are many ways to attain a particular alk and pH target. Is the claim for bolus dosing such that it is “better” than the same alk and pH attained in other ways (that seems very unlikely to me, but again, one needs to know what is being compared to what).

7. There are a whole bunch of scientifically incorrect assertions about bolus dosing that seemingly attempt to put a shroud of science around a simple product claim ("go, bolus, go"), and these should be ignored, IMO, unless they are clarified in the future to make scientific sense. These include any and all comments relating to the buffer system being broken by high pH additives, as well as long term effects on carbonic acid.