Bolus dosing

[Mo.]

@ Randy.
Bear with me as the post is a little long, but somewhat related.

This is a tank from 13 years ago. The tank was designed to help solve some question at the time.
All the corals were chosen for vary degrees of difficulty in keeping colour and growth. The only aim was to grow them for 10-12 months and then either frag, move them to another spot in the tank or replace them.

Everything that was added to the tank was of known origin. i.e. baking soda, damprid, epsom salts, borax, lugols, seachem strontium, potassium chloride, sugar, vodka, diy seafood mix, fish oil, multi vitamins and a horse amino acid / vitamin supplement, that strangely had the exact same ingredients list a aquarium based amino supp.

There is nothing else but a round tub for a sump with a skimmer, heater and UV. NO gac, gfo, refuge...Nothing. 20% NSW water changes once a week, 100% when I needed to reset after dosing some of the above, approx every 6 months

When I built the LED's there was some stray current in the circuit board that caused the LEDs to remain dimly lit when turned to 0%. So for a year I just switched them on/off manually at the power point.
Being a BB proponent, and having followed the musings of Jerel on RC, the photo period was 2 hours of max and the rest as medium light, similar to his. For reference, peak PAR of the centre blue stag was > 700.
For various reasons the peak par period was at the start of the light cycle. The cycle time varied between 9-14hours depending on when i got around to switching them on/off.

The fish were fed and bi-carb dose when the lights were switched on in the morning. Bi-carb was dosed every morning by simply throwing a couple spoons of powder directly into the weir. Calcium was dosed a couple times a week in the evening, same thing a spoon or two of damprid directly into the weir.
Alkalinity was checked twice a week in the afternoons. pH was read but only sporadically.
It was running like this for about 8 months before some lighting and other changes were made.
Alkalinity measurements always followed what would be expected.

Measured with what?? Dipping your little finger in and tasting it??

And you guys question my techniques of measurement and suggesting the alk trend was within error range of the measures, rather than a possible effect of dosing 600ml of Alk when you ran your reef and gained your experience with almost nothing?

 

[Mo.]

@ Randy.
Bear with me as the post is a little long, but somewhat related.

This is a tank from 13 years ago. The tank was designed to help solve some question at the time.
All the corals were chosen for vary degrees of difficulty in keeping colour and growth. The only aim was to grow them for 10-12 months and then either frag, move them to another spot in the tank or replace them.

Everything that was added to the tank was of known origin. i.e. baking soda, damprid, epsom salts, borax, lugols, seachem strontium, potassium chloride, sugar, vodka, diy seafood mix, fish oil, multi vitamins and a horse amino acid / vitamin supplement, that strangely had the exact same ingredients list a aquarium based amino supp.

There is nothing else but a round tub for a sump with a skimmer, heater and UV. NO gac, gfo, refuge...Nothing. 20% NSW water changes once a week, 100% when I needed to reset after dosing some of the above, approx every 6 months

When I built the LED's there was some stray current in the circuit board that caused the LEDs to remain dimly lit when turned to 0%. So for a year I just switched them on/off manually at the power point.
Being a BB proponent, and having followed the musings of Jerel on RC, the photo period was 2 hours of max and the rest as medium light, similar to his. For reference, peak PAR of the centre blue stag was > 700.
For various reasons the peak par period was at the start of the light cycle. The cycle time varied between 9-14hours depending on when i got around to switching them on/off.

The fish were fed and bi-carb dose when the lights were switched on in the morning. Bi-carb was dosed every morning by simply throwing a couple spoons of powder directly into the weir. Calcium was dosed a couple times a week in the evening, same thing a spoon or two of damprid directly into the weir.
Alkalinity was checked twice a week in the afternoons. pH was read but only sporadically.
It was running like this for about 8 months before some lighting and other changes were made.
Alkalinity measurements always followed what would be expected.

Btw- do you have any recent tanks?
A lot has changed in 13 years!

 

[Mo.]

.

 

[Mo.]

Right, it is not. Never said it was. The only extraordinary claim is the lack of alk effect on dosing bicarbonate. And your alk measurement is close to the error range.

What is the error range? I believe the measurements at my dosing are detectably different, so I don’t agree.

You’ve made an assumption about my water volume based on advertised system volume and rounded it up, to suit your argument. I already told you my estimated alk dose was much higher than your proposed dose, based on the water volume error you used.

It also can’t translate to a biological effect, if you’re saying that my dosing could be as little as zero due to this “presumed” calculation error. The proposed measurement error needs to be biologically believable too?!

The pH effect is exactly known for bolus dosing of bicarbonate, carbonate, and hydroxide, and is also known for photosynthesis. There is nothing magic here. I measured it myself and it exactly fits with widely recognized chemical science.

Photosynthesis raises pH. Raising alk boosts pH after equivalent aeration. Bolus dosing bicarbonate causes a tiny pH drop before aeration (too small for you to reliably detect at your low dose. I did reliably detect it when dosing 1.4 dKH: 0.06 pH units). Carbonate and hydroxide bolus dosing boost pH. All three of these effects are then impacted by the first effect: higher pH with higher alk after aeration.

If your spread out bicarbonate dosing had the same alk level at the same time of day as after your bolus dose, then it cannot have a lower pH. But the reason I am pursuing this is because we do not know what is being compared to the bonus. If the alk is lower in the am, then one would expect the pH to be lower. No magic, just science.

There is nothing magic- it’s this thread that says that FM claimed it was. It’s just that it is unusual and reproducible in many different systems.

I was only looking for an explanation…..

 

[Lasse]

I would remind everyone that the science of alkalinity determination is more complicated than is generally recognized by most hobbyists. These complexities are not important for any sort of routine husbandry.

If I understand you right - my very small changes can be an effect of the method in use? Could be that way - but should not the effect be the opposite if my small changes is pH/CO2 depended? Below - it is a typical pH swing curve for my aquarium.

I understand your standpoint that there is no way to explain this (a possible delay between dose and reading) with help of pure chemistry but could it be a biological way to explain this? However - its only an observation in a rather special aquarium and it could be an artefact as you pointed out

I get it with the skills I attained from my medical degree, followed by my PhD, followed by my post doctoral diploma and my higher surgical degree.

Reading or hear things like this in a discussion where it does not matter make me always want to play this on my record player. This time I played it 5 times

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mo.]

Well yes, the accuracy and repeatability would be questioned if used as evidence of an odd claim, especially where gradients of colour change are a little subjective and 1 single drop of titration solution equates to about 0.2dkh on the test kit.

But it’s supported by the pH measurements too?

And the majority of all aquarium tank readings are based on the same technology.

So a difference in the alk measurement curve isn’t suddenly going to be explained
By lack of dosing volume, when it isn’t questioned on using it for standard dosing.

The pH is also directly compared and conforms and the pattern of measurement is repeated ever day and looks just as stable and in many different tanks in Germany apparently.

So you’re saying for one method the alk is below the detection limit and for the other it’s fine, even though for smaller dosing volumes the level of detection is satisfactory for you but for high volumes it suddenly loses its sensitivity?

That doesn’t make sense?!

 

[Mo.]

Well yes, the accuracy and repeatability would be questioned if used as evidence of an odd claim, especially where gradients of colour change are a little subjective and 1 single drop of titration solution equates to about 0.2dkh on the test kit.

Yes and know.

You guys questioned the technique and said that the alk readings are no longer believable even though the bolus dosing combines in to a much larger dose than standard dosing volumes……so you would it expect if anything the bolis to show detectable results!

That’s counter intuitive.

 

[Mo.]

You tried saying attacks or insults were rude so he quoted a bunch of times you did exactly that.
But apparently that went over your head just like most things in this thread.

Thanks.

Quoting apparent attacks and insults and then making the fundamental insult.

And getting support from your cronies.

True hero. Well done.

 

[Mo.]

Again you are responding to things not directed at you.

Sorry- I’ve been doing this whilst having a few moments spare on my phone.

Some comments get missed and the autocorrect means I have to keep editing the posts.

 

[Mo.]

That's not the point I'm debating. Merely stating that perhaps it should be called something else since bolus isn't synonymous with alkalinity. Just dosing. Bolus by definition is literally a single dosage of medicine. In reefing, one could call daily carbon dosing with one dose bolus. Same with anything else dosed once a day such as perhaps ChaetoGro. Fact is early reefing was daily single dose as it was a while before dosing apparatus from the medical field were employed to spread that daily dose.

My very specific point being they took a general medical term and attached it to their proprietary systematic approach for delivering alkalinity.

So what? I don’t think that’s important.

 

[Mo.]

Is it? It has not EVER been described in this thread.

1. Bolus dosing is better than what?

2. What exactly is better?

I keep asking. I asked you. No answer other than not bolus dosing.

Your only answer was it worked becuase corals didn't die. No description of what is better than what.

As I’ve said many times, only came to get an answer for the alk and pH trends I keep seeing.

The rest is irrelevant to me.

Whether it’s better or worse will
Come out in the wash, but some claim it is.

All I said is that it’s comparable to any other method I’ve used in terms of running a successful reef tank, which I have done over many years.

breaking that statement down and asking for clarification of what those terms mean is irrelevant to the question.

Why do the alk and pH graphs look
Like that consistently and why when separating the doses as normal dosing are the curves different with less stable alk readings. If the readings look different between the methods, then clearly the test as enough sensitivity to repeatedly show a difference.

The rest is up to FM and their testers to show whether it’s better than other techniques.

 

[Lasse]

This thread is more than 40 pages - so I´m sorry if the following question already is answered answered.

Has any one using this method plot pH and KH as I have done with my method. If so - can we see this chart?

My experiences with bicarbonate always point out that it could act both as a acid and a base depending on the original pH of the solution in use. For saltwater - its around 8.1 to 8.2. IME - In order to rise above 8.2 you need a lot NaHCO3 resulting in high alkalinity readings. On the other hand Na2CO3 always act as a base - always rise the pH. That´s the reason why its not wise to Bolus dosing Na2CO3. Your pH will sky rocket - believe me - I done that of mistake.

As I’ve said many times, only came to get an answer for the alk and pH trends I keep seeing.

Can you point out in which post you have publish these readings?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

Seems out of left field for you Bean

No, Why is left and Nobody is right. You asked who’s more entertaining and I already told you I don’t care and I don’t give a darn.

 

[Mo.]

This thread is more than 40 pages - so I´m sorry if the following question already is answered answered.

Has any one using this method plot pH and KH as I have done with my method. If so - can we see this chart?

My experiences with bicarbonate always point out that it could act both as a acid and a base depending on the original pH of the solution in use. For saltwater - its around 8.1 to 8.2. IME - In order to rise above 8.2 you need a lot NaHCO3 resulting in high alkalinity readings. On the other hand Na2CO3 always act as a base - always rise the pH. That´s the reason why its not wise to Bolus dosing Na2CO3. Your pH will sky rocket - believe me - I done that of mistake.


Can you point out in which post you have publish these readings?

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse,


Let me see what I can do…

 

[Mo.]

Reading or hear things like this in a discussion where it does not matter make me always want to play this on my record player. This time I played it 5 times

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse

When you quoted this, you left out the context and the preceding insults.

Just thought I should point that out.
Context is everything.


Thank you
Mo

 

[Mo.]

My experiences with bicarbonate always point out that it could act both as a acid and a base depending on the original pH of the solution in use. For saltwater - its around 8.1 to 8.2. IME - In order to rise above 8.2 you need a lot NaHCO3 resulting in high alkalinity readings. On the other hand Na2CO3 always act as a base - always rise the pH. That´s the reason why its not wise to Bolus dosing Na2CO3. Your pH will sky rocket - believe me - I done that of mistake.


Can you point out in which post you have publish these readings?

Sincerely Lasse

Hey Lasse

You’re absolutely correct about sodium carbonate dosing, which is why I suspect FM suggest not to use that or competing products that might.

The question is- do they have a little in their mix or is the higher pH and the stable alkna property of something else.

Or an error in the readings, which aren’t there with lower doses…..

 

[SDchris]

Oh please, cry me a river

Post your tank photo so I know you’re credible.

At the moment- you’re not.

Ah now I get it, you get your chemistry knowledge based on pretty photos.

Sometimes, you need to post your credentials. I have resisted, but it’s time I was given a little respect and not treated like I don’t know science and only they do.

You started with smart reply got one in return and now want to have a big whinge.

 

[Mo.]

Here you go

Top one pH from the apex
Middle alk readings following a single bolus dose of 600ml, which I thought was around 0.75dKH at the time and others think it is 0.4

Bottom: zoomed in pH on one day from the top graph when bolus dosing.

The left hand side of the top pH graph show a few days of standard multiple balling light dosings and you can see the change and gradual updrift of pH.

For the record

The system has 2 uncovered tanks and a covered sump. The tank surface area is
8ftx8ft and 5ftx5ft

The 2 rooms have 2 windows and 4 full height patio doors.

There is limited people traffic and extremely well ventilated to outside.

The system has a bubble king 500 skimmer with twin Abyzz 400 pump upgrade.

Co2 levels are low in the system. The area is very well oxygenated at all times.

This was planned into the system at the outset.

Cheers
Mo

 

[GlassMunky]

Thanks.

Quoting apparent attacks and insults and then making the fundamental insult.

And getting support from your cronies.

True hero. Well done.

Oh please, cry me a river





You started with smart butt reply got one in return and now want to have a big whinge.

Give me a break and quit trying to play the victim
#MODS

 

[Reefering1]

No, Why is left and Nobody is right. You asked who’s more entertaining and I already told you I don’t care and I don’t give a darn.

My apologies sir. This reads differently this morning. So if Why is left, Nobody is right, I don't give a darn and I don't care are more entertaining- who is playing center field?