Bolus dosing

[DutchReefer420]

When my skimmer is off my pH rises and my consumption goes up. It is dependent on CO2. I have a fairly airtight house and my CO2 readings are 1100-1300. I shut my skimmer off at night to keep pH up.

thanks!!

like i said

 

[Garf]

you have been asking for pictures and guys have been posting them and you just change the subject

I've seen nothing that would support any claim of improved coral health or growth.

 

[Koty]

AND AGAIN PLEASE READ AND WATCH THE INFO PUT OUT THERE.......

itss all been talked about already

on FM farm they are running 50/50 Bolus vs non bolus

yall are just not willing to take in info
you read a sentence somewhere and start typing this nonsense

My 0.02 to you is Why don’t you go and breath some air I was just explaining what FM did not do. What you mentioned that they showed is more bs and less science. It is not even close to proving .

 

[GlassMunky]

Garf- Thanks for quoting me above. What was the reason?

You tried saying attacks or insults were rude so he quoted a bunch of times you did exactly that.
But apparently that went over your head just like most things in this thread.

 

[GlassMunky]

Nah- I just read what’s out there. Same as you all could do….

Again you are responding to things not directed at you.

 

[GARRIGA]

I think the gist of it is the single bolus dose of alk producing the pH changes and alk stability seen or eventually seen.

The rest falls In place like any other higher pH system and stable Alk system.

I’ve seen this with Kalkwasser. They theorise that there could be some longer term problems with kalk-
Fine.

They suggest not to use it
With hydroxide based systems.

They have only tried it with their system. Which certainly has certain trace elements added to the alk. And may have other things in it.

I think that’s all they claimed and a bit of marketing to promote their product over others.

That’s my take on it….

Nobody here wants to accept that the pH and Alk readings in the graphs are possible, so are looking for reasons to support their impossibility. It that’s counter productive and will never get tot the bottom of the debate.

The other way is for some of you to try it and see what happens over a month or two.

I think that’s all they were asking.

You can forever go on about why it can’t work in theory, but until you try it in practice, it’s just theory……

As already suggested, bolus dosing has been used years ago, without the use of pH and Alk monitors that didn’t exist then. They are available now and these observations have been made as to why it may be that bolus dosing may be a good idea.

Whats wrong with that?

If you want to see similar results with kalk, look up Ryan Cunningham stream with Adam Sutherland and I think maybe Reef dudes and he describes his Kalkwasser dosing in which you get a gradual high pH and then can stabilise it at high levels around 8.6 even and at that stage, the AlK doesn’t move at all - literally 0.1 dKH per day fluctuation.

You can also hear Chris Meckley speak about the same thing…..

I don’t recall this level of uproar when kalk dosing or sodium hydroxide dosing showed similar levels of Alk stability throughout the day?


It’s a similar phenomneon here but with a single bolus Alk dose…. Which you can’t do with Kalk or other Hydroxides.

That's not the point I'm debating. Merely stating that perhaps it should be called something else since bolus isn't synonymous with alkalinity. Just dosing. Bolus by definition is literally a single dosage of medicine. In reefing, one could call daily carbon dosing with one dose bolus. Same with anything else dosed once a day such as perhaps ChaetoGro. Fact is early reefing was daily single dose as it was a while before dosing apparatus from the medical field were employed to spread that daily dose.

My very specific point being they took a general medical term and attached it to their proprietary systematic approach for delivering alkalinity.

 

[DutchReefer420]

That's not the point I'm debating. Merely stating that perhaps it should be called something else since bolus isn't synonymous with alkalinity. Just dosing. Bolus by definition is literally a single dosage of medicine. In reefing, one could call daily carbon dosing with one dose bolus. Same with anything else dosed once a day such as perhaps ChaetoGro. Fact is early reefing was daily single dose as it was a while before dosing apparatus from the medical field were employed to spread that daily dose.

My very specific point being they took a general medical term and attached it to their proprietary systematic approach for delivering alkalinit

its not ONLY alk that is deliverd true bolus

Again this is talked about in there vids why its called bolus

 

[Koty]

That's not the point I'm debating. Merely stating that perhaps it should be called something else since bolus isn't synonymous with alkalinity. Just dosing. Bolus by definition is literally a single dosage of medicine. In reefing, one could call daily carbon dosing with one dose bolus. Same with anything else dosed once a day such as perhaps ChaetoGro. Fact is early reefing was daily single dose as it was a while before dosing apparatus from the medical field were employed to spread that daily dose.

My very specific point being they took a general medical term and attached it to their proprietary systematic approach for delivering alkalinity.

Bolus is also used in modeling. True about carbon dosing. I for example dose x4 the recommended amount of TMElimiNP but I divide it to 8. Other no it is better to keep the bacteria happy and stable

 

[Garf]

its not ONLY alk that is deliverd true bolus

Indeed, if you are talking about front loading trace elements to be available to the photosynthetic organisms. This is somehow contradicted when saying elsewhere that pure bicarb could have the same magical effect. This is one of the "benefits" that appears very fluid and made up, at a whim.

 

[Mo.]

Yes, I could use a pH probe and Randy's DIY test method to titrate down to 4.5pH which would be more accurate. However, I'm using salifert as it saves messing around with probes and stock solutions and I don't need that level of precision. The salifert is quick and easy with the understanding that a repeatability of test is subject to a wobbliness, this is especially important at consumption levels on the lower end. In the HTU, there is a suggestion to use an automated tester, which apparently have accuracy (maybe repeatability) of 0.05dkh.

So, actually no-
You use the same as The majority of domestic reefers.

Yet for running your system and almost everybody else’s, all your observations, are fine.

But the apex and trident are
Insufficient for what I’m describing and lack precision….. ok…

 

[Mo.]

No ones questioned if dosing all at once is better or worse. That's all in your head.

lol-
You literally just did.
This is beyond a joke.

All I said is that the thread is titled bolus dosing, which is what I was referring to and contrary to what you posted when you were correcting me.

And you’re taking the opposite view.

Post your tank photo so I know you’re credible.

At the moment- you’re not.

Mo

 

[Mo.]

Indeed, if you are talking about front loading trace elements to be available to the photosynthetic organisms. This is somehow contradicted when saying elsewhere that pure bicarb could have the same magical effect. This is one of the "benefits" that appears very fluid and made up, at a whim.

That’s just a misinterpretation on this thread….. there’s a lot of that on here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That’s just a misinterpretation on this thread….. there’s a lot of that on here.

Is the halogen effect you noted related to bolus dosing of it in the alk part? Or no?

I believe that is what GARF is referring to.

 

[Lasse]

Do you believe the alk delay claims?

But if the alk delay is important, then it absolutely will not happen with a bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide source of alk, and thus is somewhat specific to this material.

I Use Triton core 7 3a+b as my alkalinity part. As I understand it - its mainly Na₂CO₃ and lately (before I saw this thread) I have ask myself if there is any delay in dose and showing a result. I use a GHL KH director in adjusting mode, 6 analysis a day. I also have two different base lines for the dose. Between 12:25 and 20:25 base dose is 2,5 ml (3a+b)/30 minutes and between 20:25 and 12:25 it is 0.7 ml/60 min. It means that during my active photoperiod - I dose more than 7 times more than during the darker period. Last 24 hours I dose totally 49,9 ml Core 7 3a+b with only 7.4 ml during dark period - it means 15 % at light intensity below 60% (ramp 2 hours) and 85% at light intensity above 60 % Seen in light on - light of - it was around 14 % alk dos during light off

12/7 it was a total dose of 64,5 ml and even here app 15 % during light off

Nominal value 7.8

My alk during the last week looks like this - the staples are the doses, The blue shows a delayed reaction to dose. Its not always that way but to often in order to total ignore it. The accuracy of the KH director is ± 0.2 dKH this can explain a little - but I have seen it too often to completely ignore it

I do not really understand this but for sure - in my aquarium around 15 % of the alkalinity consumption is in the dark - the rest when my light is on!


My light regime starts 10:00 and stops 22:00. It looks like this

can you prove that?

can you take your skimmer offline and show this?

Your claim was if someone takes a skimmer offline they WILL see a drop in pH and consumption. That may or may not be true.

At least for my aquarium according to pH dropp - if my skimmer stops - as in this case around 08:00 - I discover it ar 11:00 - pH responded directly

When my skimmer is off my pH rises and my consumption goes up. It is dependent on CO2. I have a fairly airtight house and my CO2 readings are 1100-1300. I shut my skimmer off at night to keep pH up.

is this really true? For me and my aquarium - its the total opposite. And my CO2 inside seldom climb over 1000 ppm. Yes it is depended on CO2 in the water but in all case I have seen it is always the opposite. High CO2 in air and water depress the pH - not rise it

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

PH 12/7 compared with alk dose. Note the sawtoothing of the curve during the day and the connection of the teeth with the dosage

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I Use Triton core 7 3a+b as my alkalinity part. As I understand it - its mainly Na₂CO₃ and lately (before I saw this thread) I have ask myself if there is any delay in dose and showing a result. I use a GHL KH director in adjusting mode, 6 analysis a day. I also have two different base lines for the dose. Between 12:25 and 20:25 base dose is 2,5 ml (3a+b)/30 minutes and between 20:25 and 12:25 it is 0.7 ml/60 min. It means that during my active photoperiod - I dose more than 7 times more than during the darker period. Last 24 hours I dose totally 49,9 ml Core 7 3a+b with only 7.4 ml during dark period - it means 15 % at light intensity below 60% (ramp 2 hours) and 85% at light intensity above 60 % Seen in light on - light of - it was around 14 % alk dos during light off

12/7 it was a total dose of 64,5 ml and even here app 15 % during light off

Nominal value 7.8

My alk during the last week looks like this - the staples are the doses, The blue shows a delayed reaction to dose. Its not always that way but to often in order to total ignore it. The accuracy of the KH director is ± 0.2 dKH this can explain a little - but I have seen it too often to completely ignore it

I do not really understand this but for sure - in my aquarium around 15 % of the alkalinity consumption is in the dark - the rest when my light is on!


My light regime starts 10:00 and stops 22:00. It looks like this

At least for my aquarium according to pH dropp - if my skimmer stops - as in this case around 08:00 - I discover it ar 11:00 - pH responded directly

is this really true? For me and my aquarium - its the total opposite. And my CO2 inside seldom climb over 1000 ppm. Yes it is depended on CO2 in the water but in all case I have seen it is always the opposite. High CO2 in air and water depress the pH - not rise it

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse,

Can you clarify where you are seeing evidence of a delay in alk meaurement of a dose that is more than either mixing times or fluid in the lines running to the machine time? (I do not know those times for your system) It's a little tricky interpreting the areas you have circled in blue where alk consumption is happening simultaneous to dosing (i.e., it takes a decent amount of dosing just to stop the alk decline), and where alk measurement may not take place frequently enough to see the exact shape of the curves.


It is commonly reported that most alk demand is primarily during the day, which can be due to either of at least two processes:

1. Calcification is easier at higher external water pH due to the ease of pumping out a proton after taking up bicarbonate (or ease of taking up higher carbonate concentrations directly).
2. Internal cellular effects where the internal pH due to photosynthesis is higher, facilitating carbonate formation.

I've always wanted someone to do a reverse experiment where pH is higher at night, and see where most alk demand takes place, but so far I've not see one.

 

[DutchReefer420]

My alk during the last week looks like this - the staples are the doses, The blue shows a delayed reaction to dose. Its not always that way but to often in order to total ignore it. The accuracy of the KH director is ± 0.2 dKH this can explain a little - but I have seen it too often to completely ignore it

I do not really understand this but for sure - in my aquarium around 15 % of the alkalinity consumption is in the dark - the rest when my light is on!


My light regime starts 10:00 and stops 22:00. It looks like this

Thank you Lasse!

 

[Garf]

That’s just a misinterpretation on this thread….. there’s a lot of that on here.

It's on one of the vids.

 

[Mo.]

How can we scientifically demonstrate that the Bolus method works?
Stage 1: have two sets (N>1) of identical tanks with the same size/population of corals, one treated with the Bolus and the other with the same amount dosed through 24 hrs
Monitor all parameters and analyze coral growth.
Stage 2: Establish a dose-response relationship to show that the larger the Bolus (within a reasonable range), the faster the growth.

FM can easily carry out this experiment during the short and preferably long term.

IMHO, I think we forgot the basics: We want to imitate the ocean as much as possible. Stability is and always will be key, even if it means that there are artificial ways to kick coral growth. This may be good for commercial growers who want their frags to grow faster, but we should ask ourselves what is more important. Faster growing corals due to pH/alkalinity and other associated fluctuations or stability? The Bolus method is not a good long-term strategy (IMO). The nostalgic reasons ("corals used to grow better when we added in a Bolus") do not hold for me.

I think you’re insulting the intelligence of some world class aquarists with this basic nonsense.


They are far ahead of this already if you care to open your horizons a little.

Sorry to say, the lack of insight here is becoming farcical.

Before me move in, show us your tank photos please, so we know you’re credible.

None of you have yet come forwards
With this which tells its own story……

 

[Mo.]

It's on one of the vids.

No it’s not. You’ve misinterpreted what they’ve said again.

They didnt say that pure bicarb has the same effects as halogen loaded bicarb.