At what point would you consider Hydros as good as Apex?

[n2585722]

I think it's cool that you're geeking out on your hydros. I would encourage you to compare what you're doing with any other controller... what you're describing is achievable with all the above. I'm not trying to convince you that you made the wrong choice, I'm simply pointing out that what you're geeking out over is what many people have been doing for 10+ years.



Yes, I know that hydros can not send a 0-10v variable output based on input states. Not that they won't have this capability eventually because theyre using the community to help with ideas. But there seems to be a list of other things that have higher priority. Which indicates there are more things that the hydros can not do as well.

Keep up the outside the box thinking. And if you want to gain some more outside the box ideas, check out Neptune systems and ghl forums they're chalked full of things like your colored light warning system. But let me warn ya... you're going to be amazed!

I came from the RKE and Archon so controllers are not new to me. As far as changing a 0-10v output depending on other outputs that can be done using schedules and a flow pump output but it would depend on the outputs. I was passing signals between my Archon and Hydros to begin with so I was able to add things over time. Originally I got it for the 0-10v inputs for my mixing station and liked it enough to expand it to the entire system. I got the original RKE in 2008 so I am not new to controllers. I like the gate based logic of the Hydros but that may be because I built my own circuit boards with gates back in the 70's when I built my first computer. I think is was in 1976 using a lot of gates and other TTL logic and an 8080A microprocessor. They have come a long way since then though.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Yep, I remember those 8bit processors.

I have a reef keeper still tucked away in a box, I had plans for it, just like all the other old controllers that I've gone through over the years.

I definitely prefer apex over ghl just because I've been around fusion for so long that it makes perfect sense to me.

When navigating the hydros, it had a ghl feel and that's just not my cup of tea.

I would've kept hydros if I was able to get a variable 0-10v output based on changes of the pH probe. It would've saved a lot of money in the long run, the cost alone would've definitely been worth downgrading for.

 

[rtparty]

I kind of hope Red Sea comes out with their own controller.

Now that’s a truly scary thought. They can barely slap some silicone and glass together

 

[n2585722]

Yep, I remember those 8bit processors.

I have a reef keeper still tucked away in a box, I had plans for it, just like all the other old controllers that I've gone through over the years.

I definitely prefer apex over ghl just because I've been around fusion for so long that it makes perfect sense to me.

When navigating the hydros, it had a ghl feel and that's just not my cup of tea.

I would've kept hydros if I was able to get a variable 0-10v output based on changes of the pH probe. It would've saved a lot of money in the long run, the cost alone would've definitely been worth downgrading for.

I am not sure you can pass a variable signal to a variable output. I have never yet had a reason to do that though.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I am not sure you can pass a variable signal to a variable output.

With a hydros, you can't.

 

[wishntoboutside]

Very happy HYDROS customer here. I moved from Apex due to product failures and build quality years ago. I had to have a controller coach help me out with my APEX. With my HYDROS I do not. My HYDROS system started with a Wave Engine. then CX4 and kept growing. Being able to monitor my TDS is priceless. There is no need to test Calcium and Mag for me every day as I run a Calcium Reactor. I think the Trident was a game changer for them but now that it's been out for a while, we all know that they just want to sell reagent. I am patiently waiting for my X10 and then I can remove my Focustronic products.

 

[Spartan76]

I have had hydros for over a year. I bought the controller module, power strip, wave engine, KLir filter and autofeeder. For me the decision was about time. The apex programming is very time consuming to learn as it is not intuitive unless your a computer savant and moreover I'd have to refresh and relearn it every time I need to make an adjustment or addition. There's other things I'd rather spend time on. The hydros is very easy and intuitive to set up. The system redundancy is another huge reason to use it.
That said - Hydros has alot of issues that despite tons of complaints from the forums etc, seem to go unheeded. And things that are not well preprogrammed are very hard to achieve.
- The wifi connections are terrible. the power strips in particualr flicker on and off. This does not affect system function but drives you crazy. BTW if someone has an answer to this issue plz chime in!
- there are less finetuning options than apex. With the wave engine for example you really have limited options for flow patterns and they are not well explained. But it's very easy to set up and use
- the Klir filter works but does let some detritus through so you still need to vacuum out your sump. It's alert timer can only go toa 24 hr limit so if your tank doesnt produce that much waste you get alert messages . If you turn off the alert BUT then you dont know if its working... From what Ive read there's better products out there.
- Customer service responds promptly (80% of the time it's Carlos) but often gives a cursory, undetailed reply so that half the time you cant get a useful answer. They should tell you exactly what to do not just a general approach, particularly as the same questions seem to come up over and over. For example like how to get the autofeeder to work with the pumps paused. It can be done somehow but even after exchanging emails with support I couldn't get there.
I would still recommend it over apex but onee should be aware what Hydros limitations are.

 

[n2585722]

I have had hydros for over a year. I bought the controller module, power strip, wave engine, KLir filter and autofeeder. For me the decision was about time. The apex programming is very time consuming to learn as it is not intuitive unless your a computer savant and moreover I'd have to refresh and relearn it every time I need to make an adjustment or addition. There's other things I'd rather spend time on. The hydros is very easy and intuitive to set up. The system redundancy is another huge reason to use it.
That said - Hydros has alot of issues that despite tons of complaints from the forums etc, seem to go unheeded. And things that are not well preprogrammed are very hard to achieve.
- The wifi connections are terrible. the power strips in particualr flicker on and off. This does not affect system function but drives you crazy. BTW if someone has an answer to this issue plz chime in!
- there are less finetuning options than apex. With the wave engine for example you really have limited options for flow patterns and they are not well explained. But it's very easy to set up and use
- the Klir filter works but does let some detritus through so you still need to vacuum out your sump. It's alert timer can only go toa 24 hr limit so if your tank doesnt produce that much waste you get alert messages . If you turn off the alert BUT then you dont know if its working... From what Ive read there's better products out there.
- Customer service responds promptly (80% of the time it's Carlos) but often gives a cursory, undetailed reply so that half the time you cant get a useful answer. They should tell you exactly what to do not just a general approach, particularly as the same questions seem to come up over and over. For example like how to get the autofeeder to work with the pumps paused. It can be done somehow but even after exchanging emails with support I couldn't get there.
I would still recommend it over apex but onee should be aware what Hydros limitations are.

I have not had many issues with the wifi devices. I don't have a mesh network. If I do have an issue with the wifi devices a reboot of my router will fix it. I also have connection issues with my surface connecting and a reboot of the router fixes that. One issue with the wifi is the power strips are a Tuya protocol power strip and can connect to either 5ghz or 2.4ghz. If it soes connect to 5ghz then the controller and wifi strip will not communicate. For this reason make sure that the 2.4ghz channel and the 5ghz channel have a different name in your router. If that is not possible then a access point for the Hydros with a different name is your best bet. On it just turn off the 5ghz channel. Make sure the access point is connected to your router using a CAT 5 or CAT cable and is not a wifi connection. Then transfer all of your Hydros controllers and wifi devices to the access point channel. When doing that it would be best to have the device with the app installed on it you are using on the access point also. Mesh networks are bad about switching devices that will work on 5ghz to 5ghz changing the name of the two channel will usually stop that. Some router also can block device interaction on the network for security reasons. The issue is this will cause a communication issue between the controllers and wifi devices. I do slow down my MP10's that are controlled by my wave engine when the feeder runs. I do not stop my return pump but I use a feeder tube and the food is already sinking when it leaves the tube. I think I have it posted in my tank thread here on R2R. Just click on My Tank Thread banner. I will see if I can find it when I get a chance and post what pages it is on and post numbers.

 

[n2585722]

I have had hydros for over a year. I bought the controller module, power strip, wave engine, KLir filter and autofeeder. For me the decision was about time. The apex programming is very time consuming to learn as it is not intuitive unless your a computer savant and moreover I'd have to refresh and relearn it every time I need to make an adjustment or addition. There's other things I'd rather spend time on. The hydros is very easy and intuitive to set up. The system redundancy is another huge reason to use it.
That said - Hydros has alot of issues that despite tons of complaints from the forums etc, seem to go unheeded. And things that are not well preprogrammed are very hard to achieve.
- The wifi connections are terrible. the power strips in particualr flicker on and off. This does not affect system function but drives you crazy. BTW if someone has an answer to this issue plz chime in!
- there are less finetuning options than apex. With the wave engine for example you really have limited options for flow patterns and they are not well explained. But it's very easy to set up and use
- the Klir filter works but does let some detritus through so you still need to vacuum out your sump. It's alert timer can only go toa 24 hr limit so if your tank doesnt produce that much waste you get alert messages . If you turn off the alert BUT then you dont know if its working... From what Ive read there's better products out there.
- Customer service responds promptly (80% of the time it's Carlos) but often gives a cursory, undetailed reply so that half the time you cant get a useful answer. They should tell you exactly what to do not just a general approach, particularly as the same questions seem to come up over and over. For example like how to get the autofeeder to work with the pumps paused. It can be done somehow but even after exchanging emails with support I couldn't get there.
I would still recommend it over apex but onee should be aware what Hydros limitations are.

Ok, found the post with the schedules and added output to get my pumps to slow down. It is on page 8 starting at post # 152 and again with some revisions to get it working right on post 157 on page 8. I am not sure if it was a revision in the firmware but There was an issue with it working with the feed mode button also and that is what the revision fixed if I am not mistaken. Let me know if you have any questions on using the combiner output type.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

Om

-- Full disclosure, I sell Hydros products and custom Hydros accessories elsewhere, but I am a power user of the product from day 1 --

This right here! Those coming from Neptune's "scripting" (myself included initially) get tripped up a lot with how to do more advanced functions. But if you break more complex functions into logical blocks and build it up using multiple "false" or virtual output functions, you can do some pretty powerful things. Plus you get visibility into each stage of your logic as well. Coming from an engineering background, Neptune is a bastardized scripting language while Hydros logic is more like a Labview Logic Block Diagram method. Neptune scripting would be so much more powerful if it was based off Python or such, and incorporate actual logic commands like AND/OR. Thats something really powerful about Hydros, is the logic combiner output, that actually gives you AND/OR functions, yes you can do that logic with Neptune but it takes much more forethought to implement effectively.

Plus something that Hydros has that Neptune does not, is what they call "Statefulness". This is baked into some of the pre-defined output profiles, such as the auto-water change profile. What makes this unique to Hydros is that it remembers what state it was in for cases where power was lost or device is reset. For AWC its very important because if you are in the process of draining and a controller resets, you want it to pickup and refill using saltwater and not freshwater ATO. With Hydros it writes its current state to non-volatile memory so a power cycle/blip/reset, allows it to pickup where it left off. Neptune doesn't do this.

A personal favorite for me on the hardware side is the 0-10V inputs on the X4, Wave engines. These are super powerful DIY analog inputs that allow for interfacing sensors, switches, and more. The generic input functions are pretty flexible to displaying and triggering other logic. Neptune does have similar analog inputs, but it requires a ~$100 ASM module, for the cost of 1 input channel. The X4 includes 4 said input channels. I have used these inputs to interface the Neptune LLS directly to my Hydros and get the same basic functionality.

Other functions/features that Neptune doesnt have:
- enclosure design that’s mindful of harsh environments. Connectors are better rated for salt use over Neptune. NO FANS! The XP8 does not actively pull in salty moist air like the EB832 does.
- Auto backup of every uploaded config to the cloud, with the last 20 versions accessible to the user (older versions accessible by support)
- Hardware recovery from backup files. The Hydros config file is in human editable JSON format. Easier to recover a failed system with Hydros method over Neptune. Neptune modules are indexed in the backup file based on what order they are attached to the brain unit, you cant just upload your backup file and recover if your modules werent indexed the same. Hydros indexes all units by SN in the JSON. So you can manually edit the SN in the txt file or even use the app to swap out a failed device and reupload to your collective.
- Collective/redundancy - Neptune relies on a single brain unit and multiple secondary modules. Without the brain, the other modules just default to a configured state or worse. Within a collective, Hydros can dynamically assign whos the main controller and whos the secondary controller(s), allowing the system to dynamically recover due to a failed endpoint. This allows you to limp at least while you get a replacement, not the case with Neptune where if the brain goes, you have 1) no visibility and 2) control.

Omg! This entire time I was bummed out I am missing out on coding, I didn't realize it wasn't a language.

This is a great breakdown, and a good way to explain thr virtual outputs for logic.

 

[cdnco2004]

I have not had many issues with the wifi devices. I don't have a mesh network. If I do have an issue with the wifi devices a reboot of my router will fix it. I also have connection issues with my surface connecting and a reboot of the router fixes that. One issue with the wifi is the power strips are a Tuya protocol power strip and can connect to either 5ghz or 2.4ghz. If it soes connect to 5ghz then the controller and wifi strip will not communicate. For this reason make sure that the 2.4ghz channel and the 5ghz channel have a different name in your router. If that is not possible then a access point for the Hydros with a different name is your best bet. On it just turn off the 5ghz channel. Make sure the access point is connected to your router using a CAT 5 or CAT cable and is not a wifi connection. Then transfer all of your Hydros controllers and wifi devices to the access point channel. When doing that it would be best to have the device with the app installed on it you are using on the access point also. Mesh networks are bad about switching devices that will work on 5ghz to 5ghz changing the name of the two channel will usually stop that. Some router also can block device interaction on the network for security reasons. The issue is this will cause a communication issue between the controllers and wifi devices. I do slow down my MP10's that are controlled by my wave engine when the feeder runs. I do not stop my return pump but I use a feeder tube and the food is already sinking when it leaves the tube. I think I have it posted in my tank thread here on R2R. Just click on My Tank Thread banner. I will see if I can find it when I get a chance and post what pages it is on and post numbers.

I only have one Hydros wave controller for the Ice Cap Gyres (not the Wave Engine versions) but I have LOTS of devices that use Tyua smart home protocols. Tyua has lots of issues with 5ghz connectivity with mesh networks. Because of this I years ago got a cheap 2.4ghz only access point for $30 on Amazon. I connect all of my tyua devices to that 2.4ghz AP and they work great. I never get disconnects or any other issues.

@n2585722 do you know if third branded tyua power strips (Non Hydros) will work with Hydros? Can you add Tyua strips into hydros for control?

 

[Spartan76]

I do run it on a 2.4g network. I have a separate 5g on the same router w a different name. The router has cat 5 from the wall to it. So I do not think that is the source of the issue.
I look up your method and see if I can get that to work for the autofeeder. thx for posting

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I do run it on a 2.4g network. I have a separate 5g on the same router w a different name. The router has cat 5 from the wall to it. So I do not think that is the source of the issue.
I look up your method and see if I can get that to work for the autofeeder. thx for posting

I run mine on a broadcasted 5ghz and 2.4 with the same SSID password/certificate authentication and mine hasn't disconnected yet. The hydros is considerably easier to connect to a 5Ghz multicast network compared to jebao controllers that is for sure.

 

[eg8r210]

I made that consideration when I looked at my requirements and saw that Hydros met all the needs as easily as Apex could. It was a no brainer.

 

[n2585722]

I only have one Hydros wave controller for the Ice Cap Gyres (not the Wave Engine versions) but I have LOTS of devices that use Tyua smart home protocols. Tyua has lots of issues with 5ghz connectivity with mesh networks. Because of this I years ago got a cheap 2.4ghz only access point for $30 on Amazon. I connect all of my tyua devices to that 2.4ghz AP and they work great. I never get disconnects or any other issues.

@n2585722 do you know if third branded tyua power strips (Non Hydros) will work with Hydros? Can you add Tyua strips into hydros for control?

If a Tuya strip has the same layout as the Hydros it may work. They do not guarantee it will but for the small price difference I got the Hydros with the mounting bracket. Home depot had one that looked exactly the same except for the color and name but no bracket to mount it. I have XP8's as well so I use the wifi strips for non critical things.

 

[cdnco2004]

If a Tuya strip has the same layout as the Hydros it may work. They do not guarantee it will but for the small price difference I got the Hydros with the mounting bracket. Home depot had one that looked exactly the same except for the color and name but no bracket to mount it. I have XP8's as well so I use the wifi strips for non critical things.

Thank you

 

[n2585722]

I do run it on a 2.4g network. I have a separate 5g on the same router w a different name. The router has cat 5 from the wall to it. So I do not think that is the source of the issue.
I look up your method and see if I can get that to work for the autofeeder. thx for posting

You may have some kind of security protocol on the router that limits devices on the network from communicating with each other to the degree that the controller and wifi strips would. You might check the manual for the router and see it it mentions something like that. It may tell you how to disable it to see if that is the issue.

 

[Aquarist76]

Now that’s a truly scary thought. They can barely slap some silicone and glass together

I've had three Red Sea tanks and never had one problem. Also their skimmers and fleece rollers are the best I've ever had. They already have a decent controller app for their equipment. All they need is a controller to control any type of equipment. Also, great customer service.