Asking for help because I am at a complete loss

[Kodski]

Just read through this. I'm not an expert at much of anything but sometimes throwing ideas out there can help.


The bacteria thing sounds like a very promising lead after you've eliminated almost every other lead. However, I know you did some tests on your water source but I didn't see anywhere that you actually fully tried a different water source. I feel that even if the tests didn't show anything out of the norm with your water supply, you should still try a different water supply to fully eliminate that possibility. Plus even as hard as switching out all the water would be for a few weeks with a different source, it would still be a lot less work and a lot less disruptive to your livestock than tearing the tank down and doing a full reset. If it were my tank, I'd have the fear that I'd go through all the work and stress of resetting the tank, but never fully eliminate the water as a source of my issues. If I switch out my water source and the problem still is present, that's when I'd feel like hitting reset is my only option.

Also UV was mentioned. Are you running UV on the tank at all? Maybe it wouldn't hurt to give that a try as well.

 

[MuscleBobBuffPants]

I found a couple more studies that refer to Vibrio as a coral pathogen pretty definitively. The next step is for sure to somehow analyze the family of Vibrionaceae in your tank and see if the species Vibrio anguillarum is in your tank.

Vibrio coralliilyticus Strain OCN008 Is an Etiological Agent of Acute Montipora White Syndrome

Identification of a pathogen is a critical first step in the epidemiology and subsequent management of a disease. A limited number of pathogens have been identified for diseases contributing to the global decline of coral populations. Here we describe Vibrio coralliilyticus strain OCN008, which...

aem.asm.org

Detection and Quantification of the Coral Pathogen Vibrio coralliilyticus by Real-Time PCR with TaqMan Fluorescent Probes

A real-time quantitative PCR-based detection assay targeting the dnaJ gene (encoding heat shock protein 40) of the coral pathogen Vibrio coralliilyticus was developed. The assay is sensitive, detecting as little as 1 CFU per ml in seawater and 104 CFU per cm2 of coral tissue. Moreover...

aem.asm.org

Complete Genome Sequence of Vibrio coralliilyticus Strain OCN014, Isolated from a Diseased Coral at Palmyra Atoll

Vibrio coralliilyticus is a marine gammaproteobacterium that has been implicated as an etiological agent of disease for multiple coral genera on reefs worldwide. We report the complete genome of V. coralliilyticus strain OCN014, isolated from a diseased Acropora cytherea colony off the western...

mra.asm.org

 

[KrisReef]

Very interesting, (all be danged tood!) Are you going to bleach the fish also?

 

[CindyKz]

I'd try taking the parrotfish out before I resorted to drastic measures.

 

[HWDylan]

at this point it seems like your only options is to bleach, but not only the tank, every single piece of equipment that you have used for this tank and perhaps even your other tanks needs to be sterilized. It’s almost as if you’re dealing with some sort of pathogen. Perhaps viewing some hospital/clean room sterilization techniques could help you out. Maybe even a very very large UV sterilizer could help you just completely nuke everything.

one other thing that I didn’t really post in my other messages but in your microfauna report there is a bacteria present in most reefs that yours lacks very very much. Something about some type of bacteria that is able to take in different sources of Carbon and methyl substances, another thing they did was listed under denitrification. I’m way more unclear about this one because the reading was difficult, but you might be missing a significant portion of denitrifying bacteria.

Please keep Me posted, I’m extremely interested in hearing about the future of this tank.
It honestly might be worth reaching out to the authors of that study and asking for their input.

I think I might try to send them an email. Keep some of your tank water

So my plan is to fill the tank with water and probably like 20 or go gallons of bleach and turn every pump and power head on and run the system as if it were normal for 24hrs. I am hoping that will kill most if not all the microfauna. I do have a oversized UV sterilizer (rated for 600 gallons) plumbed into the system that runs 24/7.

My biggest concern is the fish. Moving them into a holding tank and then very slowly reintroducing them to the main system after bleaching everything. I am unsure how to go about making sure that it is not cross contaminated. It may just be a risk that will have to be taken. I would think that once the tank has fully cycled odd strains of bacteria will have a harder time getting a foothold in the tank.

I am also considering buying a maybe 50lb or so of Tampa Bay Saltwater rock and putting it in the sump to help boost the natural biodiversity and hopefully helping make these odd strains have a harder tank competing.

 

[HWDylan]

I found a couple more studies that refer to Vibrio as a coral pathogen pretty definitively. The next step is for sure to somehow analyze the family of Vibrionaceae in your tank and see if the species Vibrio anguillarum is in your tank.

Vibrio coralliilyticus Strain OCN008 Is an Etiological Agent of Acute Montipora White Syndrome

Identification of a pathogen is a critical first step in the epidemiology and subsequent management of a disease. A limited number of pathogens have been identified for diseases contributing to the global decline of coral populations. Here we describe Vibrio coralliilyticus strain OCN008, which...

aem.asm.org

Detection and Quantification of the Coral Pathogen Vibrio coralliilyticus by Real-Time PCR with TaqMan Fluorescent Probes

A real-time quantitative PCR-based detection assay targeting the dnaJ gene (encoding heat shock protein 40) of the coral pathogen Vibrio coralliilyticus was developed. The assay is sensitive, detecting as little as 1 CFU per ml in seawater and 104 CFU per cm2 of coral tissue. Moreover...

aem.asm.org

Complete Genome Sequence of Vibrio coralliilyticus Strain OCN014, Isolated from a Diseased Coral at Palmyra Atoll

Vibrio coralliilyticus is a marine gammaproteobacterium that has been implicated as an etiological agent of disease for multiple coral genera on reefs worldwide. We report the complete genome of V. coralliilyticus strain OCN014, isolated from a diseased Acropora cytherea colony off the western...

mra.asm.org

I sent Eli from @AquaBiomics an email a while back but never heard back about it. Maybe I'll fire another one off just to try and find out a little more.

 

[HWDylan]

I'd try taking the parrotfish out before I resorted to drastic measures.

Parrot fish (or any livestock) was ruled out a few pages back by keeping corals in the sump away from the livestock. Still the same issue.

Very interesting, (all be danged tood!) Are you going to bleach the fish also?

Preventing "reinfection" or at least the reintroduction of the problem bacteria species via the fish is a big concern. Unsure how to proceed with that out other than a series of fresh saltwater dips before going in to the tank to help wash anything off of them.

Just read through this. I'm not an expert at much of anything but sometimes throwing ideas out there can help.


The bacteria thing sounds like a very promising lead after you've eliminated almost every other lead. However, I know you did some tests on your water source but I didn't see anywhere that you actually fully tried a different water source. I feel that even if the tests didn't show anything out of the norm with your water supply, you should still try a different water supply to fully eliminate that possibility. Plus even as hard as switching out all the water would be for a few weeks with a different source, it would still be a lot less work and a lot less disruptive to your livestock than tearing the tank down and doing a full reset. If it were my tank, I'd have the fear that I'd go through all the work and stress of resetting the tank, but never fully eliminate the water as a source of my issues. If I switch out my water source and the problem still is present, that's when I'd feel like hitting reset is my only option.

Also UV was mentioned. Are you running UV on the tank at all? Maybe it wouldn't hurt to give that a try as well.

Water source was ruled out due to a new test tank I set up (using the same source water) was able to keep and even grow corals just fine.

I do have a BIG UV sterilizer on this tank that I bought back when I thought this issue was a dino outbreak. I currently run it 24/7.

 

[MuscleBobBuffPants]

So my plan is to fill the tank with water and probably like 20 or go gallons of bleach and turn every pump and power head on and run the system as if it were normal for 24hrs. I am hoping that will kill most if not all the microfauna. I do have a oversized UV sterilizer (rated for 600 gallons) plumbed into the system that runs 24/7.

My biggest concern is the fish. Moving them into a holding tank and then very slowly reintroducing them to the main system after bleaching everything. I am unsure how to go about making sure that it is not cross contaminated. It may just be a risk that will have to be taken. I would think that once the tank has fully cycled odd strains of bacteria will have a harder time getting a foothold in the tank.

I am also considering buying a maybe 50lb or so of Tampa Bay Saltwater rock and putting it in the sump to help boost the natural biodiversity and hopefully helping make these odd strains have a harder tank competing.

So will you nuke the tank and then put in your ocean live rock in or try to do one last ditch effort, load it up with the LR and try to do a second Aquabiomics test an see if it has changed?

What if you could nuke the sand and rock separately and just run chlorine in the bare system. (maybe even replace the rock and sand, to guarantee the chlorine doesn't leech out slowly.)

Like take out the sand and rock - throw them out. Bleach the system, drain it completely, refill with RO and prime- run for a day or two, drain again, then aquascape, sand, and then fill with saltwater and your new LR.

With regards to your fish, I'm not sure about this. It seems like a very tough choice as to what to do with them. Another copper QT maybe (would that kill the bacteria)? Or putting them in a system with a lot of bottled bacteria maybe to outcompete the trace amounts of vibrio that might be part of their intestinal tract? on their scales? I'm not sure exactly how aggressively this needs to taken care of with the fish. Maybe some kind of QT that has lots of that ocean live rock that is separate from the one you'll put in your main system.

 

[HWDylan]

So will you nuke the tank and then put in your ocean live rock in or try to do one last ditch effort, load it up with the LR and try to do a second Aquabiomics test an see if it has changed?

What if you could nuke the sand and rock separately and just run chlorine in the bare system. (maybe even replace the rock and sand, to guarantee the chlorine doesn't leech out slowly.)

Like take out the sand and rock - throw them out. Bleach the system, drain it completely, refill with RO and prime- run for a day or two, drain again, then aquascape, sand, and then fill with saltwater and your new LR.

With regards to your fish, I'm not sure about this. It seems like a very tough choice as to what to do with them. Another copper QT maybe (would that kill the bacteria)? Or putting them in a system with a lot of bottled bacteria maybe to outcompete the trace amounts of vibrio that might be part of their intestinal tract? on their scales? I'm not sure exactly how aggressively this needs to taken care of with the fish. Maybe some kind of QT that has lots of that ocean live rock that is separate from the one you'll put in your main system.

Well there is no sand in this system so I dont have to worry about sand at all. The rocks I have gone back and forth on. I dont want to drop $1200 or so on some new rock for this tank after already doing that once but I also want to fix this issue.

I am not worried about chlorine leaching out of the rocks. Bleach is a pretty unstable chemical and mostly breaks down in about 24hrs when exposed to air and light. I bleached all the rocks before I put them in the tank originally just to clean the surface gunk off of the pukani (back when you could still get that.). Lots of people bleach dry rock when starting a new system so thats a fairly well documented procedure that seems safe.

Id buy the real ocean live rock once this tank has been bleached and cycled just to boost biodiversity in the system and hopefully out compete anything bad.


Fish are a pain. I have a lot of them and buying a bunch of new rock JUST for a temporary holding tank for them is not something I am super excited about doing. My current plan was to pull the ceramic media bricks ( 3 of the Brightwell XPORT ones) out of my current system just to quick cycle the holding tank for the fish. Those bricks will for sure have the vibrio on them but I need someway to quickly cycle a 300gal stock tank and thats my best bet right now. Before putting the fish back into the display (after the bleaching). I may run them through my QT system again, or at very minimum set up a few clean tanks and dip them in those systems to wash off anything on them.

I wish we knew more about this bacteria. Does it live on or in fish would be helpful information.

I seriously doubt I can pull this whole thing off with zero contamination from the previous system without throwing everything out and starting over and I do not have the budget to do that. I am thinking that I will have to just work hard early on to get the beneficial bacteria levels up to snuff and hopefully able to outcompete the bad stuff.

 

[I’ma tempermental coral]

So I started this thread a couple hours ago and have been bouncing back and forth between this and kids and such. I have a couple questions and one idea for possibly transferring the fish back without transferring the bacteria. First question, and maybe I missed it is where you are from? 4 wells maintained by the city and a long drive to work sounds very familiar! Spookily familiar actually! Hahaha. Second question, have you every thought of maybe doing an acid dip on your rocks, particularly the pukani? It would be a sure fire way to really make sure the bacteria is no longer there. Now the idea, I’m not even sure it would work but I figured I’d through it out there. Do you have any way to do a short ttm with the fish, maybe even individually before they go into the display again?

 

[lakai]

how is your tank needing 180ml of alk/calc a day when you have no corals???

 

[HWDylan]

So I started this thread a couple hours ago and have been bouncing back and forth between this and kids and such. I have a couple questions and one idea for possibly transferring the fish back without transferring the bacteria. First question, and maybe I missed it is where you are from? 4 wells maintained by the city and a long drive to work sounds very familiar! Spookily familiar actually! Hahaha. Second question, have you every thought of maybe doing an acid dip on your rocks, particularly the pukani? It would be a sure fire way to really make sure the bacteria is no longer there. Now the idea, I’m not even sure it would work but I figured I’d through it out there. Do you have any way to do a short ttm with the fish, maybe even individually before they go into the display again?

I am in the suburbs outside of St. Louis. Troy, IL is where I get my water from.

I have done a dip in acid before for Pukani before. That is certainly a possible route to go to help ensure no infection from the previous build.

A short TTM is exactly what I have in mind with a series of small tanks. I have the space and tanks for it I think. May not bee 100% but it will certainly be better than nothing.

how is your tank needing 180ml of alk/calc a day when you have no corals???

This has been plaguing me since the beginning and I am almost certain at this point that it has to do with this bacterial imbalance. We know that bacteria can consume alk (nitrification process uses alk) so it is not entirely out of the question. I will say that the test tank I set up (the has been successful) consumes a normal amount of alk.

Bad tank: Corals die and lots of alk consumption

Good tank: Corals live and very normal alk consumption.

Not to conflate correlation and causation... but dang.




Side note:

I added a bunch of aiptasia from my work tank yesterday just to see how aiptasia would fare in this tank ... it already looks significantly worse than it did when I put it in.
THIS TANK KILLS AIPTASIA

Amazing. If only it didnt kill coral too I could be rich.

 

[Aqua Man]

@AquaBiomics this guy is about to Nuke his tank! There has to be another recommendation.

Before bleach, maybe try a bottle of microbacter?! Cause a bacteria bloom with Vodka?! Been following, still a nuke should be a last resort IMO!

 

[TriggerFinger]

I am in the suburbs outside of St. Louis. Troy, IL is where I get my water from.

Omg...caseyville here. Hi neighbor!

 

[TriggerFinger]

It killed aiptasia in just 24 hours???!

 

[syrinx]

I am early in reading this thread- and will forget before the end- so you say you treated fish before introduction with copper. Is there a chance and rocks from the hospital tank ended up in display? any other chance of copper ? I know you have done icp testing- but we also know that test can be clean and things can still be bound in rock etc. Initially I would have thought lights by first description of loss, but now I wonder.

 

[MuscleBobBuffPants]

Well there is no sand in this system so I dont have to worry about sand at all. The rocks I have gone back and forth on. I dont want to drop $1200 or so on some new rock for this tank after already doing that once but I also want to fix this issue.

I am not worried about chlorine leaching out of the rocks. Bleach is a pretty unstable chemical and mostly breaks down in about 24hrs when exposed to air and light. I bleached all the rocks before I put them in the tank originally just to clean the surface gunk off of the pukani (back when you could still get that.). Lots of people bleach dry rock when starting a new system so thats a fairly well documented procedure that seems safe.

Id buy the real ocean live rock once this tank has been bleached and cycled just to boost biodiversity in the system and hopefully out compete anything bad.


Fish are a pain. I have a lot of them and buying a bunch of new rock JUST for a temporary holding tank for them is not something I am super excited about doing. My current plan was to pull the ceramic media bricks ( 3 of the Brightwell XPORT ones) out of my current system just to quick cycle the holding tank for the fish. Those bricks will for sure have the vibrio on them but I need someway to quickly cycle a 300gal stock tank and thats my best bet right now. Before putting the fish back into the display (after the bleaching). I may run them through my QT system again, or at very minimum set up a few clean tanks and dip them in those systems to wash off anything on them.

I wish we knew more about this bacteria. Does it live on or in fish would be helpful information.

I seriously doubt I can pull this whole thing off with zero contamination from the previous system without throwing everything out and starting over and I do not have the budget to do that. I am thinking that I will have to just work hard early on to get the beneficial bacteria levels up to snuff and hopefully able to outcompete the bad stuff.

Dylan:

I found a thread that seems very relevant to what’s going on with the next steps regarding your tank. Although it’s more about QT disinfection originally it become more relevant as it goes on.

Chlorine to disinfect QT

OK, working on a little experiment and I need some help. I've been able to glean the following from this article: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164 2.4 mg/L (or ppm) chlorine exposure eradicates ich free swimmers in 1 hour 60 mg/L chlorine is required for 24 hours to kill all ich tomonts...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MattW33]

Just been through the thread, sounds spookily similar to the issues I've had. Of course, it would be difficult to say whether it's the same issue, but I'm tempted to do one of the biologic tests off the back of this thread!

My woes span the past 2 years, so I'll try and keep it short. Essentially, almost every coral i added eventually died. Stony corals typically survived 2 weeks, some LPS managed a few months, some mushrooms and one type of zoa lasted longer. Sps all showed the same symptoms, polyp retraction over the first week, tissue loss during the second.

I spent the first year blaming my lights, setup, nutrients, alk etc. I even looked into measuring dissolved oxygen. Every ICP test came back fine (except low iodine and iron).

What prompted me to write this is that at its worst, I also saw a reduction in the aptasia I had in the tank.

Since March I've had more success. The only thing that worked was two 50% water changes, followed by weekly 20% changes. I did this for a month then tried some more corals. They've been growing fine ever since... As long as I keep up my water changes. So for me, I know I have a water issue, I'm just trying to pin down the root cause.
Whether this would work for you I don't know, but it might be worth a shot?

Either way, best of luck in whatever action you take. I've been in a similar boat and I know how frustrating it is.

 

[HWDylan]

@AquaBiomics this guy is about to Nuke his tank! There has to be another recommendation.

Before bleach, maybe try a bottle of microbacter?! Cause a bacteria bloom with Vodka?! Been following, still a nuke should be a last resort IMO!

I bought a 2L bottle of microbacter7 about 8mo ago and slowly dosed it to the tank trying to right the ship. I have also used Vibrant, and Dr Tims Waste Away.

no results at all.

Omg...caseyville here. Hi neighbor!

HEYYYYYY!

It killed aiptasia in just 24 hours???!

Not totally killed but they look smaller and not as happy which is consistent with how corals behave. Poor poly extension almost immediately.

I am early in reading this thread- and will forget before the end- so you say you treated fish before introduction with copper. Is there a chance and rocks from the hospital tank ended up in display? any other chance of copper ? I know you have done icp testing- but we also know that test can be clean and things can still be bound in rock etc. Initially I would have thought lights by first description of loss, but now I wonder.

No copper. ICP confirmed multiple times.

Dylan:

I found a thread that seems very relevant to what’s going on with the next steps regarding your tank. Although it’s more about QT disinfection originally it become more relevant as it goes on.

Chlorine to disinfect QT

OK, working on a little experiment and I need some help. I've been able to glean the following from this article: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164 2.4 mg/L (or ppm) chlorine exposure eradicates ich free swimmers in 1 hour 60 mg/L chlorine is required for 24 hours to kill all ich tomonts...

www.reef2reef.com

Reading for this evening for sure. Thanks for all the help by the way. This is the first time since I set the tank up that I feel like I have some clue of what is going on.

 

[HWDylan]

Dylan:

I found a thread that seems very relevant to what’s going on with the next steps regarding your tank. Although it’s more about QT disinfection originally it become more relevant as it goes on.

Chlorine to disinfect QT

OK, working on a little experiment and I need some help. I've been able to glean the following from this article: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164 2.4 mg/L (or ppm) chlorine exposure eradicates ich free swimmers in 1 hour 60 mg/L chlorine is required for 24 hours to kill all ich tomonts...

www.reef2reef.com

After reading this it seems like the drying out of everything is probably even more important than the bleaching.

I'll have to make sure I do my best to get as much of the equipment and tank as dry as possible before restarting.