Asking for help because I am at a complete loss

[HWDylan]

I can tell you from my experience in swimming pool keeping that chlorine test strips are worse than useless. I say this because they so often give false readings that can give a false sense of security. We typically tell people that the only thing they are good for is measuring the depth of your trash can.

You can get a FAS-DPD titration test kit from any pool store, and that will give you accurate free and combined chlorine readings. But even a $15 drop test kit from Wal Mart will give you a reasonably accurate total chlorine reading (TC = FC + CC). Since it should be zero, this is probably good enough. But anything is better than test strips.

Since you said this I went and ran a few test strips under straight tap water to check them.

Every single one read 0 chlorine...

I see your point here.

 

[NYCMikeM3]

Yikes -- i'm so sorry you're having such a hard time (especially with such an incredible setup). Couple of thoughts / things to tinker with (as you said though, you've really covered so many of the likely causes already)...

1) Your nitrates do seem really high... not sure if i missed something, but 25ppm doesn't sounds ideal for a lot of the coral you've tried.
- You've got a pretty huge skimmer & a complex setup; i would have guessed you'd be battling with ultra-low nitrates (even though you've got a lot of fish)... any idea what's keeping NO3 so 'high'?

2) Are your radions running AB+? 55% + diffuser + that height seems like you wouldn't risk scorching them. But you do have A LOT of radions running. Have you thought of shutting off every other one to see if that helps? At this point, if all your coral is bleaching out / RTN/STN'ing I don't think you're risking anything by cutting out half of your lights as an experiment

3) I know your ICP results said 0 Cu, but you mentioned your fish quarantine process involved Cu treatment. I assume they're getting rinsed sufficiently etc. Maybe try running cuprisorb JIC?

4) your PH is quite high relative to a ~9dKH (which probably makes sense with the soda ash). Maybe try switching to a standard alkalinity supplement? I realize this is very 'unscientific' but as everyone (and yourself) have pointed out: you have a conspicuous amount of KH consumption for not having any SPS

5) Where are you quarantining the frags after you dip them or do they go directly into the DT after a rinse? I've used the Bayer dip also and i've also been very bad and not dipped.... I've had some coral not do too well after a dip; I assume you're dipping with the right dilution and everything but maybe try an A/B test with your dip/QT process: If you put un-dipped frags in your QT, do they live? Any chance they come in contact with your fish quarantine water (Cu)?
- basically: do the frags live in the quarantine tank and then die/bleach when you put them in the main? or is the QT only for the fish?


Wish you the very best of luck and hope you find a solution ASAP

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Very frustrating indeed. I culture and dose Nanochloropsis and I have purchased pod kits from Algae Barn to get a population going way back when I started the tank. The amphipod population specifically is insane in this tank. I also have various brittle stars and bristle worms that I intentionally introduced into the tank to increase the biodiversity.

Great, did you take a look at the thread I linked? The biodiversity they talk about is more on the bacteria level than the Pod and Phyto level. If you haven't, for ease, I will link it again. Why can't u keep SPS.

 

[Forshurley]

It has to be the well water, have you sent your source water to icp test? Plus if RODI unit old might want hand held TDS meter to ensure the one on unit is working. My 2 cents...

 

[NYCMikeM3]

Was just thinking more over your problems. Kind of basic but you can probably reduce 'any' problem to one of the following 4 categories (and then ask whether there's some lever in that category you can pull to see if there's improvement):
1. Nutrients

- NO3 seems high; maybe try chemipure & figure out source of high nitrates​

- Throw in a couple poly filters maybe?​

2. Lighting

- You're running a small fortune worth of Radions . even though 55% power level + diffuser seems good maybe cut 1/2 off​

3. Pollutant

- A lot of people suggesting Chloramine etc (probably worth further investigation)​

- Cu exposure from quarantine process? Run Cuprasorb / Metasorb (just in case)​

- Run your Carbon reactor full time​

- Dipping process (either too harsh or possibly entering your main tank somehow)​

4. Stable Parameters

- Clearly you have an awesome setup; the only suspicious thing is the ALK consumption​

All the best

 

[Steve1500]

Was just thinking more over your problems. Kind of basic but you can probably reduce 'any' problem to one of the following 4 categories (and then ask whether there's some lever in that category you can pull to see if there's improvement):
1. Nutrients

- NO3 seems high; maybe try chemipure & figure out source of high nitrates​

- Throw in a couple poly filters maybe?​

2. Lighting

- You're running a small fortune worth of Radions . even though 55% power level + diffuser seems good maybe cut 1/2 off​

3. Pollutant

- A lot of people suggesting Chloramine etc (probably worth further investigation)​

- Cu exposure from quarantine process? Run Cuprasorb / Metasorb (just in case)​

- Run your Carbon reactor full time​

- Dipping process (either too harsh or possibly entering your main tank somehow)​

4. Stable Parameters

- Clearly you have an awesome setup; the only suspicious thing is the ALK consumption​

All the best

I read in an earlier post that someone suggested checking for rust but I didn’t see a reply. Maybe I missed it. I had a similar issue and found a few rusty screws. Wish you the best.

 

[rusty hannon]

I am at a complete loss here and I don't know what else to try. I would appreciate any and all advice or ideas you guys possibly have.

I am a year and a few months into this new tank. Everything is going great and (using a trident) I have the parameters very very stable, coraline algae growing all over, and all of the fish are very healthy and disease free. This is not my first tank and so I have tried to do everything the best way possible this time around. Quarantine all fish properly, not cheap out on items, etc. I have a maintenance routine that is very constant so there should be no big changes ever happening to this system.

Here is my problem: Every coral I put into the tank dies. I have tried: Stylo, Cyphastrea, Chalice, Lepto, and Zoanthids. Only the Zoas are still alive but they are absolutley not growing or spreading at all and several have just melted away. All of the other corals have just gone pale and had their tissue slowly recede over the course of about 1 week or two.

What is the issue here? I have a tank at work that I have 0 issues with and my first tank was an SPS dominant 75g that was fine. I am somewhat experience in this hobby and would like to rule out any of the obvious newbie mistakes when it comes to corals.

Here is a bit of background on the tank and the parameters:

300 gallon display (96x36x20) with a ~150g sump. It is a bare bottom display with an ABS plastic bottom (pretty much covered in coraline at this point). It is controlled by and Apex with 3 DOS units and a Trident. I verify the tridents reading once a week to be safe and it has never deviated more than the expected margin of error. I have a Pentair 80W HO UV Sterilizer on it running off of the return pump (Reeflo Barracuda Gold). There is cheato in the fuge that is growing well and I run filter socks that I change out every few days.

I dose BRS Soda ash and BRS Calcium Chloride (about 180ml of each a day) with a DOS over a 24hr time period to keep everything stable.

Alk: 9.0DKH
Cal: 425 ppm
Mag 1500ppm
PO4: 0.1 - 0.05ppm on average
NO3: 12-25ppm on average

I have sent in several ICP tests over the last year and every singe one has come back almost completely green. I honestly have never seen an ICP test that looked so good on any of my tanks (I can post the most recent one if people are interested).

For Lighting I have 8 Radion Gen 4 Pros with diffusers on them at about 16in off the water. I rented a par meter when I first set them up and have PAR maps for the tank at 50%, 60%, and 70%. I am running the lights at 55% currently and there is no place in the tank where the PAR is over 310.

For Flow I have 2x MP40 and 4x MP60 (overkill but I wanted to push water across an 8ft tank so I went with more horsepower) I use a combo of Tidal Swell mode and Reef Crest on the vortechs to keep the currents in the tank constantly shifting.

Water changes are done via one of the DOS units at 6gal a day. I use Tropic Marin Pro salt and adjust the alk up a bit to match the display.

I use no other media like GFO. I have a carbon reactor plumbed into the manifold but rarely use it unless I feel the need to.



Everything seems perfect for corals (especially SPS) but here I am unable to keep anything alive, much less get it growing)

Please help. I have no clue what this issue is.

first you have a beautiful set up n im totally sure you dont have the same prob im currently getting out of but our sympyoms sound the same.since i moved n had to leave all my aquaria gear behind i got a nano n been working n building it up for about the last 6 yearseverything went fine for about the last 5 n three quarters years.i couldnt bring any thing as i said n since its a 28 gal nano ive always bought my water n had no probs then all at once i lost almost lost everything and what did /Rsurrive was only 2 fish 5 zoas n a rodactis.come to find out after testing daily for a month n water changes about every 4 days turns out the water i have been useing was too pure.have no idea why the sudden change after useing the same for so long but switched where imm getting water n things r turning around. hope you can sort this quick n sorry i cant help.R

 

[Cell]

Could you feasibly start bringing home 10 or 20 gallons of water per day from the office? I think the well water has to be the main culprit here.

 

[HWDylan]

Yikes -- i'm so sorry you're having such a hard time (especially with such an incredible setup). Couple of thoughts / things to tinker with (as you said though, you've really covered so many of the likely causes already)...

1) Your nitrates do seem really high... not sure if i missed something, but 25ppm doesn't sounds ideal for a lot of the coral you've tried.
- You've got a pretty huge skimmer & a complex setup; i would have guessed you'd be battling with ultra-low nitrates (even though you've got a lot of fish)... any idea what's keeping NO3 so 'high'?

2) Are your radions running AB+? 55% + diffuser + that height seems like you wouldn't risk scorching them. But you do have A LOT of radions running. Have you thought of shutting off every other one to see if that helps? At this point, if all your coral is bleaching out / RTN/STN'ing I don't think you're risking anything by cutting out half of your lights as an experiment

3) I know your ICP results said 0 Cu, but you mentioned your fish quarantine process involved Cu treatment. I assume they're getting rinsed sufficiently etc. Maybe try running cuprisorb JIC?

4) your PH is quite high relative to a ~9dKH (which probably makes sense with the soda ash). Maybe try switching to a standard alkalinity supplement? I realize this is very 'unscientific' but as everyone (and yourself) have pointed out: you have a conspicuous amount of KH consumption for not having any SPS

5) Where are you quarantining the frags after you dip them or do they go directly into the DT after a rinse? I've used the Bayer dip also and i've also been very bad and not dipped.... I've had some coral not do too well after a dip; I assume you're dipping with the right dilution and everything but maybe try an A/B test with your dip/QT process: If you put un-dipped frags in your QT, do they live? Any chance they come in contact with your fish quarantine water (Cu)?
- basically: do the frags live in the quarantine tank and then die/bleach when you put them in the main? or is the QT only for the fish?


Wish you the very best of luck and hope you find a solution ASAP

NO3 and PO4 was an issue for a long time leading to a dino outbreak. I was dosing both for about 3 months before I started to be able to keep a reasonable NO3 and PO4 reading without dosing. I am fairly happy with where the NO3 and PO4 are now. I wouldnt consider 12-25ppm NO3 to be terribly high. My tank at work regularly has higher than that.

The source of the NO3 is the food I feed I am sure. I feed a VERY nutrient dense diet as well as an auto feeder doing pellets 2x a day plus a sheet of nori every day. Keeping the fish well fed and happy is always a big priority for me. I have never seen corals struggle with a NO3 reading around 25ppm.

Radions are AB+. I may try turning every other one off or at least dropping the power down to 30% or so maybe. Based on my PAR readings it doesnt seem likely that its causing an issue but what can it hurt I suppose? Eliminating variables is the name of the game here.

I see a lot of people suggesting running a poly filter just to check off a lot of the heavy metals and stuff just in case and I am gonna try that, again, just to rule things out.

So with the dip I have only dipped the corals that came from unknown sources (I.E. LFS). All of the most recent cases were frags from my work tank so I did not dip them at all aside from a mild iodine dip to help keep infection down from fragging. I do not QT corals yet since I have only really been using stuff from my work tank which I know the history of and know there are no pests. Once I get stuff actually growing in this tank the plan is to use a 20g long that I have for a Coral QT tank for when I pick stuff up at swaps.
I have 2 separate QT tanks for fish (Observation and Medication) the copper tank is in a completely different part of the house and has all its own equipment that NEVER gets used anywhere else. So I dont think cross contamination is the problem here.

Great, did you take a look at the thread I linked? The biodiversity they talk about is more on the bacteria level than the Pod and Phyto level. If you haven't, for ease, I will link it again. Why can't u keep SPS.

Yes. I was actually dosing Microbacter 7 and Dr. Tims back when I was having a dino outbreak about 6mo ago. I may pick up some KZ products and try them. Cant hurt anything. I wish there was an easy test to see if bacteria are behind some issues like this one I am having.

I read in an earlier post that someone suggested checking for rust but I didn’t see a reply. Maybe I missed it. I had a similar issue and found a few rusty screws. Wish you the best.

This SHOULD show up in an ICP test. In fact thats how most people find out they have a rusty magnet or screw if having it show on ICP tests. Mine have consistently showed no heavy metals.

It has to be the well water, have you sent your source water to icp test? Plus if RODI unit old might want hand held TDS meter to ensure the one on unit is working. My 2 cents...

I do use a handheld meter to back up my in-line one on the RODI unit.

I am really hoping the source water isnt the issue but I am starting to run out of other options at this point.

first you have a beautiful set up n im totally sure you dont have the same prob im currently getting out of but our sympyoms sound the same.since i moved n had to leave all my aquaria gear behind i got a nano n been working n building it up for about the last 6 yearseverything went fine for about the last 5 n three quarters years.i couldnt bring any thing as i said n since its a 28 gal nano ive always bought my water n had no probs then all at once i lost almost lost everything and what did /Rsurrive was only 2 fish 5 zoas n a rodactis.come to find out after testing daily for a month n water changes about every 4 days turns out the water i have been useing was too pure.have no idea why the sudden change after useing the same for so long but switched where imm getting water n things r turning around. hope you can sort this quick n sorry i cant help.R

I am not sure what you mean by "too pure". Can you elaborate on that? 0 TDS water has been the gold standard and you are reconstituting it via salt mix so in theory you should be making new sea water.

Could you feasibly start bringing home 10 or 20 gallons of water per day from the office? I think the well water has to be the main culprit here.

It will be tricky and very exhausting but it may be worth it just to figure out if that is the issue.

Lets suppose that is the issue... god ... where do I go from there? Hauling 35gallons of water from work weekly is not a long term solution really.... bleh.





Does anyone here have any experience with Tritons N-Doc tests? Is there anything that it tests for that could help shine light on this issue? I am grasping at straws here but anything helps at this point.

 

[Schnizzle]

@AquaBiomics does work with bacterial analysis. Maybe they can help or shed some light on how to find out what you have.

A disease is wiping out Caribbean corals. Coming soon to a reef tank near you?

Some of you may have read about a disease that is devastating coral populations throughout the Caribbean. As if these populations hadn't already been through enough, between runoff, overfishing, and warming -- now they're facing yet another disease outbreak. The following image, from a publicly...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[HWDylan]

@AquaBiomics does work with bacterial analysis. Maybe they can help or shed some light on how to find out what you have.

A disease is wiping out Caribbean corals. Coming soon to a reef tank near you?

Some of you may have read about a disease that is devastating coral populations throughout the Caribbean. As if these populations hadn't already been through enough, between runoff, overfishing, and warming -- now they're facing yet another disease outbreak. The following image, from a publicly...

www.reef2reef.com

Oh that would be worth paying for if it helped me figure this out for sure.

 

[Scubasteve11]

Have you tried keeping anything in your coral QT? May help determine if your water is the source of the issue?

 

[intricate_reefer]

Wow this seems like a mystery to me but it sounds like you have covered your bases. Trying to rack my brain can’t think of anything.

Just wanted to comment on the Alk consumption. Coralline could be using some but what most people don’t take into account is that the nitrification process uses carbonates. If you feeding a lot it could be the reason. I would also check for precipitation when dosing just to be sure.

I wish you luck and hope you can get this figured out. I would be loosing my mind.

 

[Reef Tripp]

What stone you used in your configuration, perhaps it is a problem of the syndrome of the new tank, in which it is suggested you can not keep sps until two years old, luck

 

[Reef Tripp]

Revisiting my Elos tank after 18 months | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Sometimes we just aren’t as smart as we think we are. I am using the “royal we” as I know I am definitely not as smart as I think I am a lot of the tie, especially when it comes to this hobby.

reefbuilders.com

 

[Jenuvio]

How is your ammonia? Thinking you may be lacking some surface area for beneficial bacteria... Also was thinking youe water may have high acidity but your ph looks good.. You have a killer setup, but a crappy dilemma

 

[willieboy240]

This is what I would do. Just to try to narrow down the problem. Set up a small aquarium with water , rock, coral , etc. from your aquarium at work. Use Nothing from home. But set it up next to your aquarium at home. Keep it alive for however long that something should have died in the big aquarium. If you can keep it alive, then you know it’s not the environment. If not then you know. Ok. Let’s say it’s alive. Then use your water. If it dies. Then there you go. If not. Then keep going until it dies. Do it slow and be sure. Remember, no cross contamination. Even the make up water should be from your work.

 

[HWDylan]

Have you tried keeping anything in your coral QT? May help determine if your water is the source of the issue?

The Coral QT is not currently set up but I may throw a quick tank up just to see if I can eliminate variables.

Wow this seems like a mystery to me but it sounds like you have covered your bases. Trying to rack my brain can’t think of anything.

Just wanted to comment on the Alk consumption. Coralline could be using some but what most people don’t take into account is that the nitrification process uses carbonates. If you feeding a lot it could be the reason. I would also check for precipitation when dosing just to be sure.

I wish you luck and hope you can get this figured out. I would be loosing my mind.

Yes I spoke with Randy about the Alk consumption a while back and he said what I am seeing isnt unusual for a tank this size. I have have just always dosed what the tank used and figured if the water chemistry is right, then it should be fine.

I have seen no signs of precipitation on heaters, pumps, or anywhere near the dosing lines.

Losing my mind over this is an understatement at this point. Bleh.

What stone you used in your configuration, perhaps it is a problem of the syndrome of the new tank, in which it is suggested you can not keep sps until two years old, luck

I used a combination of Dry Pukani and Marcos Reef Saver. I am willing to concede that it may be too early for acros and the like but I have never seen a tank run for a year and still not be able to sustain even Zoas.

How is your ammonia? Thinking you may be lacking some surface area for beneficial bacteria... Also was thinking youe water may have high acidity but your ph looks good.. You have a killer setup, but a crappy dilemma

I dont test often but it has always read 0 since the tank finished cycling. I have around 300lb of rock plus 2 of the XPORT Bio Bricks from Brightwell. I do not think surface area is an issue here.

This is what I would do. Just to try to narrow down the problem. Set up a small aquarium with water , rock, coral , etc. from your aquarium at work. Use Nothing from home. But set it up next to your aquarium at home. Keep it alive for however long that something should have died in the big aquarium. If you can keep it alive, then you know it’s not the environment. If not then you know. Ok. Let’s say it’s alive. Then use your water. If it dies. Then there you go. If not. Then keep going until it dies. Do it slow and be sure. Remember, no cross contamination. Even the make up water should be from your work.

I like this idea a lot. I do not love having to set up a new tank but i suppose it can be fairly bare bones since it will be temporary. This will eliminate a bunch of potential things for me though.

I have that 20 gallon long sitting around that I intended to use for a coral QT. I will look into getting that set up as a test tank.

 

[HWDylan]

Revisiting my Elos tank after 18 months | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Sometimes we just aren’t as smart as we think we are. I am using the “royal we” as I know I am definitely not as smart as I think I am a lot of the tie, especially when it comes to this hobby.

reefbuilders.com

This is a very interesting article.

Does give me some hope that this is an issue with a new tank (especially since this tank is a barebottom) and gives me hope that it will eventually correct itself with time.

I am wondering, since it has been brought up several times now, if buying several different bascteria blends (microbacter, KZ ZeoBak, etc) would not help this situation.

Also I have heard people use Garfs Grunge to increase the biodiversity of new tanks. Maybe worth looking into.

I would love to hear from anyone who has purchased any of the Garfs Grunge products.

 

[Schnizzle]

I'll gladly send some Xenia your way for testing. haha