Are Tropic Marin A- and K+ the same as OBM Part C

[spicymikey]

This is actually a product chemistry question. Maybe @Lou Ekus or someone from Tropic Marin will see this question if none of us know the answer.

I use all three of the products listed in the title to help keep my minor and trace elements in balance. I've read multiple times its not a good idea to combine K+ solution with A- solution. OK, maybe there are some reactions that can occur at high concentrations found in these bottles. I'll avoid that. But then what is the difference with them vs OBM Part C? Isn't Part C ALL the trace elements combined as well, minus the Sodium Chloride? Isn't that K+ and A- combined? Why is that ok but mixing the liquid K+/A- is not ok.

I ask this because I'm trying to simplify some dosing processes. If Part C is all the Trace and minor elements needed in one box, then couldn't we just increase the dose rate of Part C to compensate for Sodium Chloride creation as well as meet coral demand?

Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

This is actually a product chemistry question. Maybe @Lou Ekus or someone from Tropic Marin will see this question if none of us know the answer.

I use all three of the products listed in the title to help keep my minor and trace elements in balance. I've read multiple times its not a good idea to combine K+ solution with A- solution. OK, maybe there are some reactions that can occur at high concentrations found in these bottles. I'll avoid that. But then what is the difference with them vs OBM Part C? Isn't Part C ALL the trace elements combined as well, minus the Sodium Chloride? Isn't that K+ and A- combined? Why is that ok but mixing the liquid K+/A- is not ok.

I ask this because I'm trying to simplify some dosing processes. If Part C is all the Trace and minor elements needed in one box, then couldn't we just increase the dose rate of Part C to compensate for Sodium Chloride creation as well as meet coral demand?

Thanks!

A common way to answer this is to call the companies involved.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We can answer this perfectly.

Balling Part C is in no way equivalent or interchangeable with any trace element supplement, including TM A and K. The composition is not correct.

A salt mix also has all the minor and trace elements needed, but it’s not a useful supplement. That’s just not the right way to think of it.

Ill find one of my earlier responses detailing the reasons and post it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s one of the places I discuss this issue;

Trace elements by contrast

I haven’t seen much of the trace elements I’d like on my icp tests. Trying to do some comparisons on how to get the trace elements in my tank the best way. These are all said to exist in natural seawater etc. How do you get your trace in the reef and how do you measure them? my last ICP test...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[spicymikey]

A common way to answer this is to call the companies involved.

Of course. That's kind of obvious. I did call them on their tech support line and I even emailed them. No response. It's been about 3 days so I decided to post it on here.

 

[spicymikey]

We can answer this perfectly.

Balling Part C is in no way equivalent or interchangeable with any trace element supplement, including TM A and K. The composition is not correct.

A salt mix also has all the minor and trace elements needed, but it’s not a useful supplement. That’s just not the right way to think of it.

Ill find one of my earlier responses detailing the reasons and post it.

Yeah if you can point me to some pre-existing discussion on this subject that would be great randy! Right now I am adding k+ to my calcium containers and a- to my alkalinity containers. I'm also slow dripping a mixture of part C fortified with some additional base elements which notoriously do not stay in Balance because of my aquariums natural uptakes.

But I have now switched over to a strong sodium hydroxide mix for my alkalinity source and we all know that has a very high pH compared to sodium carbonate, which is what I was using before.

So the bigger question in my mind, and what actually started me down this path, is can I safely continue to add the a- to a solution made up of sodium hydroxide and water. Do I even need these two liquid forms of elements from Tropic Marine if I were to just increase the dosing of their part C.

Of course I tried to reach out to Lou and Tropic Marin by both direct email and telephone number. I have not heard back from them yet and I'm not a patient person lol. So a discussion with my peers and their experiences is the next best thing. Thanks in advance for any thing you can share from your experiences and your deep chemistry knowledge

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Of course. That's kind of obvious. I did call them on their tech support line and I even emailed them. No response. It's been about 3 days so I decided to post it on here.

It's not a tricky question, and just accepting a manufacturers comments carries a lot of risk, IMO, since many do not understand their own products. I'm not saying that is true of TM, but it certainly is true of some others. .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah if you can point me to some pre-existing discussion on this subject that would be great randy! Right now I am adding k+ to my calcium containers and a- to my alkalinity containers. I'm also slow dripping a mixture of part C fortified with some additional base elements which notoriously do not stay in Balance because of my aquariums natural uptakes.

But I have now switched over to a strong sodium hydroxide mix for my alkalinity source and we all know that has a very high pH compared to sodium carbonate, which is what I was using before.

So the bigger question in my mind, and what actually started me down this path, is can I safely continue to add the a- to a solution made up of sodium hydroxide and water. Do I even need these two liquid forms of elements from Tropic Marine if I were to just increase the dosing of their part C.

Of course I tried to reach out to Lou and Tropic Marin by both direct email and telephone number. I have not heard back from them yet and I'm not a patient person lol. So a discussion with my peers and their experiences is the next best thing. Thanks in advance for any thing you can share from your experiences and your deep chemistry knowledge

You SHOULD use Balling Part C with any simple combination of sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide and calcium chloride. The Part C keeps the added sodium and chloride (and the subsequent need to reduce salinity over time) from altering the concentrations of those other elements (magnesium, sulfate, potassium, bromide, etc.).

What is does not do, and is the wrong composition for, is offset any consumption of things like iron, manganese, etc. Those are what you need a trace element supplement such as A and K for.

We have discussed the addition of TM A and K into the hydroxide recipe, as folks have for sodium carbonate and bicarbonate. I have theoretical concerns about some ions, but folks have tried and and I'll see if I can find that discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's one such discussion of putting TM A and K into two part:

Trace elements mix with Soda Ash

Can I mix Fauna Marin's balling light trace 3, or Tropic Marin's A- or K+ trace elements to a soda ash solution? This will allow me to dose trace elements without having a discrete dosing pump. From what I can find online the Fauna Marin Trace 3 was meant to be mixed with the FM carbonate mix...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Lou Ekus]

@spicymikey As many of the R2R community will attest to, I reply to every email and phone call possible. I also take every tech support call that comes into the office. It may be possible, even though I have posted my email and phone number many times here on R2R, that you have the wrong email and phone number, as I have NO unanswered calls, messages or email. I will be happy to go through this with you in detail by phone. My phone number is 413-367-0101 during east cost business hours. My email is [email protected]. If you still have any quesitons about this, after @Randy Holmes-Farley very nice detailed explanation, please don't hesitate to call or email me.

 

[spicymikey]

@spicymikey As many of the R2R community will attest to, I reply to every email and phone call possible. I also take every tech support call that comes into the office. It may be possible, even though I have posted my email and phone number many times here on R2R, that you have the wrong email and phone numnmer, as I have NO unanswered calls, messages or email. I will be happy to go through this with you in detail by phone. My phone number is 413-367-0101 during east cost business hours. My email is [email protected]. If you still have any quesitons about this, after @Randy Holmes-Farley very nice detailed explanation, please don't hesitate to call or email me.

Hi Lou, I didn't mean to insult TM. I agree you and your company have been great to work with. As I said in my post, it had only been a few days and I admit I am an impatient person, so I decided to post the question on R2R.

I did email [email protected]. So maybe there is something wrong with email delivery. I did not get a bounce back. To be perfectly honest, when I called the main number it went to voice mail and I just hung up and tried email next. I just resent the email and also called the TM number again and left a voice mail this time. Let me know if you don't get them.

Regardless, glad you saw the post. As I mentioned I use many of your products, including K+, A-, and OBM Part C. I use a lot of it actually since I have a 400gal system and I do minimal water changes. So, a little insight into the differences between Part C and K+/A- combined would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, a little insight into the differences between Part C and K+/A- combined would be appreciated. Thanks!

What additional explanation are you looking for?

I don't really understand the uncertainty. Balling Part C is mostly major ions, not trace elements,. Magnesium, sulfate, potassium, sodium, and chloride make up the vast majority of it. It is not a suitable trace element supplement and is not intended as such. If you tried to use it to maintain iron and manganese, the major ions would shoot through the roof in the first week of dosing. Adding a NSW amount of iron or manganese (which is often needed in a supplement) would boost magnesium by 1300 ppm in a single dose!

Using it is exactly the same as doing a very tiny seawater addition every day. That is not sufficient to replace rapidly depleting ions such as iron and manganese.

 

[rtparty]

What additional explanation are you looking for?

I don't really understand the uncertainty. Balling Part C is mostly major ions, not trace elements,. Magnesium, sulfate, potassium, sodium, and chloride make up the vast majority of it. It is not a suitable trace element supplement and is not intended as such. If you tried to use it to maintain iron and manganese, the major ions would shoot through the roof in the first week of dosing. Adding a NSW amount of iron or manganese (which is often needed in a supplement) would boost magnesium by 1300 ppm in a single dose!

Using it is exactly the same as doing a very tiny seawater addition every day. That is not sufficient to replace rapidly depleting ions such as iron and manganese.

I thought the promotion for Part C is it has no sodium or chloride? Or at least it says NaCl free salt or something along those lines.

I assume if there is sodium and chloride it is just bonded to something else and not each other?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought the promotion for Part C is it has no sodium or chloride? Or at least it says NaCl free salt or something along those lines.

I assume if there is sodium and chloride it is just bonded to something else and not each other?

It is "sodium chloride" free salt, but that does not mean it has no sodium or chloride coming from other needed components. Just that it is a salt mix lacking NaCl as an additive. Pretty easy for a salt manufacturer to make, IMO. Same recipe, leave out the NaCl. Wish more companies did so to provide some competition.

Here's how to think of the problem of designing such a recipe, minimizing sodium and chloride as much as possible...

In a liter of residual ions, magnesium is needed at a level of 0.053 moles to match seawater composition. Where can that come from? Easiest would be some magnesium chloride, and enough magnesium sulfate to provide most or all of the needed sulfate. But the needed sulfate is only 0.028 moles, so the remaining 0.025 moles of magnesium has to come with some other counterion. If you cannot use chloride, you are left needing more other negative charges than are actually present in a liter of seawater (bromide, borate, fluoride, bicarbonate, and there the list runs out very fast),even trying to use all other negative charges together.

Thus, you cannot add enough magnesium without providing some chloride. In part, that can be seen by the fact that there is more chloride than sodium in seawater, so one cannot just take out all Na+ and Cl- and still have a net neutral charge solution (as all solutions must be).

While TM has not listed ingredient concentrations in Balling Part C, a reasonable formulation is a salt mix simply without NaCl. One might make other recipes where one tries to reduce the Na+ and Cl- further, but that gets complicated fast, and TM has not claimed to do this that I have seen. It also is not any substantial benefit.

 

[spicymikey]

What additional explanation are you looking for?

I don't really understand the uncertainty. Balling Part C is mostly major ions, not trace elements,. Magnesium, sulfate, potassium, sodium, and chloride make up the vast majority of it. It is not a suitable trace element supplement and is not intended as such. If you tried to use it to maintain iron and manganese, the major ions would shoot through the roof in the first week of dosing. Adding a NSW amount of iron or manganese (which is often needed in a supplement) would boost magnesium by 1300 ppm in a single dose!

Using it is exactly the same as doing a very tiny seawater addition every day. That is not sufficient to replace rapidly depleting ions such as iron and manganese.

I was looking to understand the details of the element makeup.

I spoke with Lou today and he cleared it up for me. For everyone's benefit here's the answer:

K+ and A- do not contain all the minor and trace elements as found in OBM Part C. More specifically, K+ and A- only contain 17 of the most used elements, and in a different proportion than Part C or the Pro salt mix.

Part C, as we already knew, is their Pro salt minus the NaCl and major element supplements for Calcium, Mag, Alk. It contains about 70 elements and is solely intended to help maintain balance because of the creation of NaCl from a traditional 2part scheme.

So that was the answer to the first part of my question. Thanks Lou! The second part was whether we can use TM A- in a solution of Sodium Hydroxide in the same way we use it with Sodium Carbonate. Lou was not sure of the answer but would run it by Hans tomorrow. I'm concerned the high PH of my Sodium Hydroxide mix (about 12) might do some unexpected things to the elements in the A- which would not occur in a solution of Sodium Carbonate. When I get the answer I'll share it

If I can still use A- the way I was using it with my Sodium Carbonate 2part solution, then I can minimize the need to add another doser. As you can see in the photo I already auto dose 6 different solutions and don't have room for much more.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I thought I already said exactly that. Guess I'm wasting my time trying to help here.

 

[spicymikey]

OK, I thought I already said exactly that. Guess I'm wasting my time trying to help here.

If you ask a question in my forum, and are just going to look elsewhere for answers, that's not kosher.

Not a thank you, nothing.

Going to take a break and help others that appreciate it.

I don't know what your talking about Randy. I did not intend to slight anyone. I think you might be mixing up the sequence of events. I asked a question here, AND emailed TM. Today you responded with an answer. Thank you! I was away from my PC for most of the day and in that time I also got a call from Lou with an authoritative answer on HIS product. I tried to share the answer he gave me when I got back to my desk. I also just read you answer that came in afterwards and it generally said the same thing.

I sincerely thank you both!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry for blowing up, but I do not feel like my time or effort or correct answers were even acknowledged.
You may or may not recognize the issue if you read back thorough the thread, but you skipped right over several posts of mine to only comment to Lou twice. When you did reply to me, it was just to recount Lou’s answer and thank him.

Even Lou acknowledged my answer.

 

[spicymikey]

Sorry for blowing up, but I do not feel like my time or effort or correct answers were even acknowledged.
You may or may not recognize the issue if you read back thorough the thread, but you skipped right over several posts of mine to only comment to Lou twice. When you did reply to me, it was just to recount Lou’s answer and thank him.

Even Lou acknowledged my answer

You're right. It wasn't done intentional but I see how it came off looking unappreciative. Truth is I've learned more about the chemistry side of this hobby from you than anyone else. I am very much appreciative. My apologies!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're right. It wasn't done intentional but I see how it came off looking unappreciative. Truth is I've learned more about the chemistry side of this hobby from you than anyone else. I am very much appreciative. My apologies!

No problem. Happy Reefing.