Balling Part C

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting you mention that. For years, I could not grow Coralline but over the last several months, I have managed to keep my historical high phosphate levels at a reasonable limit of around 0.1ppm. During this same period, Coralline is begging to show itself in several places. That sounds like why I am, and I suspect will continue need to dose more Magnesium!
Is there a limit on how much Magnesium you can add to part 3 of these solutions? I have added 3 times the recommended amount to the Mineral salt and although it has helped, i am still having to manually top up Magnesium a couple of times a week.

Thanks for pointing this out

IF you need extra magnesium, I'd use a magnesium supplement. But even with strong coralline, magnesium consumption is not more than about 1/10th of the calcium consumption, so if it looks to be a lot more than that, it may be test error or a salinity drop.

 

[ConsummatePro]

I am personally using BRS Alk (soda ash) and BRS calcium with their recommended mixing instructions, and recently added TM Part C.

As far as I understand, if you mix TM Part C with the recommended 4 scoops in 1 gallon, you would dose the Part C at a rate of DOUBLE your Alk or Ca dosing. I do know TM only recommends 4 scoops per gallon on the Part C box.

I have since read that some reefers have successfully made TM Part C in double concentration of 8 scoops in 1 gallon and then dose that in a 1:1:1 ratio alk:Ca: Part C. I do believe older BRS videos did suggest 7 scoops until it was updated to the current recommendation of 4 scoops per gallon.

I decided to try it and was able to make an 8 scoop per gallon TM Part C solution (using RO/DI water and a magnetic stirrer) - the solution has remained totally clear with no precipitation or sludge after sitting in the dosing container or the storage jug for > 1 month (a BRS 1 gallon jug for what its worth). I've been dosing this at 1:1:1 with Alk and Ca for the last month and so far I'm not seeing any funny crusting or crystals in the water as it gets dosed. I am using a dosing pump over 24h daily.

@Randy Holmes-Farley @Lou Ekus -- if I'm making an 8 scoop/gallon TM Part C that looks fully dissolved, do you expect it's an anomaly on my side, or do you expect it to precipitate out eventually? Am I setting up for a problem later on?

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I've been dosing double the volume part c mixed at 4 scoops to my soda ash dosing.

20ml soda ash, 40ml balling part c

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am personally using BRS Alk (soda ash) and BRS calcium with their recommended mixing instructions, and recently added TM Part C.

As far as I understand, if you mix TM Part C with the recommended 4 scoops in 1 gallon, you would dose the Part C at a rate of DOUBLE your Alk or Ca dosing. I do know TM only recommends 4 scoops per gallon on the Part C box.

I have since read that some reefers have successfully made TM Part C in double concentration of 8 scoops in 1 gallon and then dose that in a 1:1:1 ratio alk:Ca: Part C. I do believe older BRS videos did suggest 7 scoops until it was updated to the current recommendation of 4 scoops per gallon.

I decided to try it and was able to make an 8 scoop per gallon TM Part C solution (using RO/DI water and a magnetic stirrer) - the solution has remained totally clear with no precipitation or sludge after sitting in the dosing container or the storage jug for > 1 month (a BRS 1 gallon jug for what its worth). I've been dosing this at 1:1:1 with Alk and Ca for the last month and so far I'm not seeing any funny crusting or crystals in the water as it gets dosed. I am using a dosing pump over 24h daily.

@Randy Holmes-Farley @Lou Ekus -- if I'm making an 8 scoop/gallon TM Part C that looks fully dissolved, do you expect it's an anomaly on my side, or do you expect it to precipitate out eventually? Am I setting up for a problem later on?

If you are asking can you make it more concentrated, then I don't see an issue with that.

 

[ConsummatePro]

If you are asking can you make it more concentrated, then I don't see an issue with that.

Thanks - it seems to make sense just to use a 2x concentration for Part C to keep things simpler for those using the Randy/BRS solutions.

I wonder why BRS stepped away from the higher concentration recommendation — was it because Tropic Marin told them there are issues with making a stable 2x concentration solution?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks - it seems to make sense just to use a 2x concentration for Part C to keep things simpler for those using the Randy/BRS solutions.

I wonder why BRS stepped away from the higher concentration recommendation — was it because Tropic Marin told them there are issues with making a stable 2x concentration solution?

I do not know why they do what they do, but my DIY sodium carbonate recipe (BRS uses this recipe as their soda ash recipe) is about twice as concentrated as the original Balling Recipe.

The original Balling recipe was designed for 1:1:1 dosing, so the original TM Part C directions are for that lower potency.

If you use the Original Balling Part C with my recipe, then you will need to use twice as much, or make the Balling part C twice as concentrated if you want to use 1;1:1 dosing.

If you make it twice as concentrated (8 scoops per gallon) and see no precipitate, you are good to go. Most of the components in Balling part C are very soluble, or are present at very low concentration, and thus I do not foresee any issue.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I am personally using BRS Alk (soda ash) and BRS calcium with their recommended mixing instructions, and recently added TM Part C.

As far as I understand, if you mix TM Part C with the recommended 4 scoops in 1 gallon, you would dose the Part C at a rate of DOUBLE your Alk or Ca dosing. I do know TM only recommends 4 scoops per gallon on the Part C box.

I have since read that some reefers have successfully made TM Part C in double concentration of 8 scoops in 1 gallon and then dose that in a 1:1:1 ratio alk:Ca: Part C. I do believe older BRS videos did suggest 7 scoops until it was updated to the current recommendation of 4 scoops per gallon.

I decided to try it and was able to make an 8 scoop per gallon TM Part C solution (using RO/DI water and a magnetic stirrer) - the solution has remained totally clear with no precipitation or sludge after sitting in the dosing container or the storage jug for > 1 month (a BRS 1 gallon jug for what its worth). I've been dosing this at 1:1:1 with Alk and Ca for the last month and so far I'm not seeing any funny crusting or crystals in the water as it gets dosed. I am using a dosing pump over 24h daily.

@Randy Holmes-Farley @Lou Ekus -- if I'm making an 8 scoop/gallon TM Part C that looks fully dissolved, do you expect it's an anomaly on my side, or do you expect it to precipitate out eventually? Am I setting up for a problem later on?

I'd have to check with @Hans-Werner on this. But I know that the Balling PArt C solution is not very concentrated. It is recommended to be mixed in that 4 scoop concentration to match on a 1:1:1 part addition with the Original Balling Method. If the solution is staying dissolved, and you are not seeing any precipitate after more than a month, I would say it is most likely fine to keep doing it that way. @Hans-Werner can confirm this when he sees this post.

 

[SDLlama]

Not to add to the confusion, but there have been a couple revisions to the Part C mixing and use instructions from BRS for use in their "system" and I don't believe either are entirely accurate. I believe the original BRS instructions (168 grams or 7.5 scoops of Part C per gallon) were intended for equal dosing of soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions in a 1:1:1 ratio. The revised BRS instructions simply follow the mixing instructions on the Part C packaging (91 grams or 4 scoops of Part C per gallon) with BRS instructing to dose soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions in a 1:1:2 ratio.

The Balling method is intend for dosing of it's parts A, B, and C in equal amounts, or in a 1:1:1 ratio. However, the potency of the Balling Part A calcium chloride solution is not the same as the BRS calcium chloride solution, nor is it exactly half the potency. Comparing the relative potency of the BRS calcium chloride mix to the TM Part A calcium chloride mix, the BRS mix uses 514 grams calcium chloride dihydrate to make 1 gallon of solution whereas the TM Part A mix uses 288 grams calcium chloride dihydrate to make 1 gallon of solution. All else being equal, that ratio is 1.78.

Therefore, I believe the correct Part C mixing instructions, when using BRS calcium chloride, is 162 grams (or ~7 scoops) Part C to make 1 gallon of solution and dose in equal 1:1:1 amounts with soda ash and calcium chloride solutions. Alternatively, 81 grams (~3.5 scoops) of Part C can be used to make 1 gallon of solution and follow a 1:1:2 ratio of soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions.

Perhaps these small differences (~11%) don't make much of a difference in the end. However, if one is going to the trouble and expense of mixing and dosing TM Part C to offset negative effects of rising sodium chloride levels over time (and the associated deficiencies that arise when salinity is corrected) they might as well use the correct potency and mixing instructions for the Part C.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not to add to the confusion, but there have been a couple revisions to the Part C mixing and use instructions from BRS for use in their "system" and I don't believe either are entirely accurate. I believe the original BRS instructions (168 grams or 7.5 scoops of Part C per gallon) were intended for equal dosing of soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions in a 1:1:1 ratio. The revised BRS instructions simply follow the mixing instructions on the Part C packaging (91 grams or 4 scoops of Part C per gallon) with BRS instructing to dose soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions in a 1:1:2 ratio.

The Balling method is intend for dosing of it's parts A, B, and C in equal amounts, or in a 1:1:1 ratio. However, the potency of the Balling Part A calcium chloride solution is not the same as the BRS calcium chloride solution, nor is it exactly half the potency. Comparing the relative potency of the BRS calcium chloride mix to the TM Part A calcium chloride mix, the BRS mix uses 514 grams calcium chloride dihydrate to make 1 gallon of solution whereas the TM Part A mix uses 288 grams calcium chloride dihydrate to make 1 gallon of solution. All else being equal, that ratio is 1.78.

Therefore, I believe the correct Part C mixing instructions, when using BRS calcium chloride, is 162 grams (or ~7 scoops) Part C to make 1 gallon of solution and dose in equal 1:1:1 amounts with soda ash and calcium chloride solutions. Alternatively, 81 grams (~3.5 scoops) of Part C can be used to make 1 gallon of solution and follow a 1:1:2 ratio of soda ash, calcium chloride, and Part C solutions.

Perhaps these small differences (~11%) don't make much of a difference in the end. However, if one is going to the trouble and expense of mixing and dosing TM Part C to offset negative effects of rising sodium chloride levels over time (and the associated deficiencies that arise when salinity is corrected) they might as well use the correct potency and mixing instructions for the Part C.

My diy two part recipe #1 (baked baking soda) which BRS uses is 1.89 times as potent as the original Balling (based on the stated alk part potency of both). Thus if the original Balling uses 4 scoops per gallon for 1:1:1 dosing, then my recipe and BRS will use 1.89 times that or 7.56 scoops for 1:1:1.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I'd have to check with @Hans-Werner on this. But I know that the Balling PArt C solution is not very concentrated. It is recommended to be mixed in that 4 scoop concentration to match on a 1:1:1 part addition with the Original Balling Method. If the solution is staying dissolved, and you are not seeing any precipitate after more than a month, I would say it is most likely fine to keep doing it that way. @Hans-Werner can confirm this when he sees this post.

then my recipe and BRS will use 1.89 times that or 7.56 scoops for 1:1:1

Thank you, Lou, SDLlama and Randy! The numbers are very helpful.

8 scoops in 1 gallon of RODI water can easily be dissolved. So, add 7.5 or slightly more scoops Original Balling C to RODI water for getting one gallon solution that fits well to the BRS two part.

 

[spsick]

Thank you, Lou, SDLlama and Randy! The numbers are very helpful.

8 scoops in 1 gallon of RODI water can easily be dissolved. So, add 7.5 or slightly more scoops Original Balling C to RODI water for getting one gallon solution that fits well to the BRS two part.

Well that’s fascinating! BRS initially recommended this but then stopped due to concerns of the solution falling out.

Thank you Hans!

 

[Mjl714]

ATI water test results, sample taken 3/20/2023. Been dosing sodium hydroxide w/ sodium sulfate since 11/5/2021. Added Balling C 2/22/2023, at approximately same rate as sodium hydroxide dose, start slowly. Plan to discontinue sodium sulfate with next alk mix up. Water changes approx. 5% per week with regular instant ocean. I know no3 & po4 should be reduced, but do I risk excess sulfate by simply adding balling c?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sodium sulfate duplicates Balling Part C and there’s no reason to use both. Discontinuing at next mixing is fine.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Sodium sulfate duplicates Balling Part C and there’s no reason to use both. Discontinuing at next mixing is fine.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you explain this further? I don't understand this statement.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you explain this further? I don't understand this statement.

The sodium sulfate in the diy two part provides sulfate to balance out the chloride from the calcium chloride.

Among many things it provides, Balling Part C also provides that same amount of sulfate. Thus, one would not use the sodium sulfate if using Balling Part C. It was not intended to claim any other aspect of the two additives is the same.

The person asking was doing that exact thing, which is why I commented.

 

[Lou Ekus]

The sodium sulfate in the diy two part provides sulfate to balance out the chloride from the calcium chloride.

Among many things it provides, Balling Part C also provides that same amount of sulfate. Thus, one would not use the sodium sulfate if using Balling Part C. It was not intended to claim any other aspect of the two additives is the same.

The person asking was doing that exact thing, which is why I commented.

@Randy Holmes-Farley I understand. If you email me or message em, I can explain why I asked further. Otherwise, thanks for the reply!