Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[Whiskeyboy84]

Chicken pox is a virus.

Yes it is it’s a form of herpes there are strains of ich that work in this manner hence why fish can have an autoimmune response form of ich.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Fish don't get treated for months though.

I am literally just trying to be realistic here. Not like... well under THIS scenario..... if your hannah checker doesn't work or you use copper from the stone ages..

ya and if the supplier accidently puts blue water in your copper power, it won't work either.

Just head over to marketplace forum on any reef site and you will see the buying and selling of second hand checkers with expired reagents as well as opened containers of copper who’s storage parameters are any bodies guess. These two cases prove the likelihood of human error through poor technique.

 

[Tamberav]

Just head over to marketplace forum on any reef site and you will see the buying and selling of second hand checkers with expired reagents as well as opened containers of copper who’s storage parameters are any bodies guess. These two cases prove the likelihood of human error through poor technique.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Why is this even relevant?



I think you are just trolling. Iol

It’s relevant because it proves that poor husbandry thrives in our communities and shows how lazy people truly are which leads to less than ideal quarantine practices in the community as a whole. If you can’t see or understand that then I am sorry. It’s like if a hospital ran your tests with expired reagents or second hand reagents whose storage is questionable. Would you trust the results or would you question them. Also many of the supplements we use don’t do well when exposed to extreme temperatures not saying this happens to copper or formaldehyde as I haven’t particularly researched these effects on these treatments. You like LionFishhunter seem to not understand my argument isn’t in the ability to treat and maintain a symptom free environment just the ability to speak in absolutes is questionable at best. Also the understanding of one strain of ich isn’t a reason to speak in absolutes about the entire class.

 

[Tamberav]

It’s relevant because it proves that poor husbandry thrives in our communities and shows how lazy people truly are which leads to less than ideal quarantine practices in the community as a whole. If you can’t see or understand that then I am sorry. It’s like if a hospital ran your tests with expired reagents or second hand reagents whose storage is questionable. Would you trust the results or would you question them. Also many of the supplements we use don’t do well when exposed to extreme temperatures not saying this happens to copper or formaldehyde as I haven’t particularly researched these effects on these treatments. You like LionFishhunter seem to not understand my argument isn’t in the ability to treat and maintain a symptom free environment just the ability to speak in absolutes is questionable at best. Also the understanding of one strain of ich isn’t a reason to speak in absolutes about the entire class.

The debate isn't about poor husbandry. I simply said ich can be killed, yes using proper techniques and not just random expired reagents and 10 yr old copper power.

If people want to be lazy then ya they can have disease and dying corals when they are lazy with the corals too and have poor husbandry then maybe ultimately quit the hobby. They are certainly free to waste their time. Maybe they will buy a used alk checker with expired reagents and nuke their tank.. idk. All of that seems pointless. It's not what I am talking about.

I feel this all may just be a troll so I will move on.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

The debate isn't about poor husbandry. I simply said ich can be killed, yes using proper techniques and not just random expired reagents and 10 yr old copper power.

If people want to be lazy then ya they can have disease and dying corals when they are lazy with the corals too and have poor husbandry then maybe ultimately quit the hobby. They are certainly free to waste their time. Maybe they will buy a used alk checker with expired reagents and nuke their tank.. idk. All of that seems pointless. It's not what I am talking about.

I feel this all may just be a troll so I will move on.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

So the debate with LionFishHunter was about 100% eradication which I have said from jump street isn’t achievable at this moment for most reefers also you and others zone in on a specific understood strain of ich and turn a blind eye to the known autoimmune strain that is not as studied and is not able to be completely removed from the fish. That’s why i likened that particular strain to the herpes virus because it acts and behaves in a relatively similar manner.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

It’s relevant because it proves that poor husbandry thrives in our communities and shows how lazy people truly are which leads to less than ideal quarantine practices in the community as a whole. If you can’t see or understand that then I am sorry. It’s like if a hospital ran your tests with expired reagents or second hand reagents whose storage is questionable. Would you trust the results or would you question them. Also many of the supplements we use don’t do well when exposed to extreme temperatures not saying this happens to copper or formaldehyde as I haven’t particularly researched these effects on these treatments. You like LionFishhunter seem to not understand my argument isn’t in the ability to treat and maintain a symptom free environment just the ability to speak in absolutes is questionable at best. Also the understanding of one strain of ich isn’t a reason to speak in absolutes about the entire class.

Yeah I completely agree that most people will screw up treating ich, and then it will come back. but nobody is arguing against that.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

So the debate with LionFishHunter was about 100% eradication which I have said from jump street isn’t achievable at this moment for most reefers also you and others zone in on a specific understood strain of ich and turn a blind eye to the known autoimmune strain that is not as studied and is not able to be completely removed from the fish. That’s why i likened that particular strain to the herpes virus because it acts and behaves in a relatively similar manner.

Please list some sort of evidence of this autoimmune incurable ich? Because I am also starting to believe you are a troll.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

The debate isn't about poor husbandry. I simply said ich can be killed, yes using proper techniques and not just random expired reagents and 10 yr old copper power.

If people want to be lazy then ya they can have disease and dying corals when they are lazy with the corals too and have poor husbandry then maybe ultimately quit the hobby. They are certainly free to waste their time. Maybe they will buy a used alk checker with expired reagents and nuke their tank.. idk. All of that seems pointless. It's not what I am talking about.

I feel this all may just be a troll so I will move on.

Couldn’t agree more

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Couldn’t agree more

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-resistant-ich-strain.560624/ this has some interesting info I am trying to locate the article I read a few years back about the autoimmune response that for lack of better words mimics ich with all the same symptoms and has to be treated with different medications. Humblefish also did a write up on management vs eradication as well my argument has not changed that eradication is still largely unachievable for the vast majority of aquarist.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-resistant-ich-strain.560624/ this has some interesting info I am trying to locate the article I read a few years back about the autoimmune response that for lack of better words mimics ich with all the same symptoms and has to be treated with different medications. Humblefish also did a write up on management vs eradication as well my argument has not changed that eradication is still largely unachievable for the vast majority of aquarist.

Maybe there is copper resistant ich. I have no idea. It can still be completely cured with simply moving the fish from one tank to another a few times over the course of 8 or 9 days. TTM

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Maybe there is copper resistant ich. I have no idea. It can still be completely cured with simply moving the fish from one tank to another a few times over the course of 8 or 9 days. TTM

The fact that you think treatment and moving tanks over a short period of 8-9 days is sufficient proves husbandry techniques are a factor because it’s commonly accepted that a quarantine of up to 76 days is necessary as well with husbandry is the accuracy and titration of our treatments which can’t be guaranteed so yes the removal of the active infection is very achievable we cannot say 100% that it’s eradicated is all that I have been saying.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

The fact that you think treatment and moving tanks over a short period of 8-9 days is sufficient proves husbandry techniques are a factor because it’s commonly accepted that a quarantine of up to 76 days is necessary as well with husbandry is the accuracy and titration of our treatments which can’t be guaranteed so yes the removal of the active infection is very achievable we cannot say 100% that it’s eradicated is all that I have been saying.

You’re mixing up some basic concepts badly. And it proves you should not be giving advice on this topic. Or are a troll.

76 days is the longest fallow period for rocks, snails, etc. Has nothing to do with actually treating a fish for tank transfer as the environment is sterilized every 3 days or so.

The tank transfer method takes advantage of the very well documented life cycle of ich.

Tank Transfer Method

Important - Tank Transfer Method is most effective when water temperature and salinity are kept within this range: Temp: 24C-28C / 76F-82F Salinity: 27ppt-35ppt / 1.020 SG - 1.026 SG Tank Transfer Method (updated 2-9-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only. How To Treat...

humble.fish

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

You’re mixing up some basic concepts badly. And it proves you should not be giving advice on this topic. Or are a troll.

76 days is the longest fallow period for rocks, snails, etc. Has nothing to do with actually treating a fish for tank transfer as the environment is sterilized every 3 days or so.

The tank transfer method takes advantage of the very well documented life cycle of ich.

Tank Transfer Method

Important - Tank Transfer Method is most effective when water temperature and salinity are kept within this range: Temp: 24C-28C / 76F-82F Salinity: 27ppt-35ppt / 1.020 SG - 1.026 SG Tank Transfer Method (updated 2-9-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only. How To Treat...

humble.fish

I understand that however the DT unless broken down and sterilized needs that 76 day fallow period so just treating the fish in separate qt tanks doesn’t eliminate the problem in the tank I may have miss understood his description of his method that is entirely possible. Just like I feel we all are in agreement that if done appropriately you can eliminate ich, velvet and other diseases from your system what we are having the disagreement on is the achievable level of success by the average reefer or even the for profit aqua-culturing facility. To achieve success you have to have a dedicated multi faceted approach with individuals who pay attention to detail. It also must be repeatable and have sound checks and balances. Just look at your average LFS and you will see my point I haven’t been to a single LFS that doesn’t have pests, algal problems , and fish losses due to disease or poor care. These places are a good example of the workers in the aquaculture industry. Just because we have pride in our systems doesn’t mean everyone does. Not to mention many reefers are reefing on a budget and cannot afford the nicest most accurate equipment or to have multi systems available for qt purposes then tack on the cost of water, salts, meds I just don’t think 100% eradication is plausible for a majority of aquarist. Then to tack those cost on at a massive scale for a for profit aquaculture company doesn’t make financial sense as most aquaculture species only sale for 15% or so above wild caught. Aquaculture facilities do what they can to ensure a clean healthy product I am sure if not you won’t have repeat customers or word of mouth customers that being said it’s also not i their best interest to spend more raising and treating livestock than what they can sell them for.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I understand that however the DT unless broken down and sterilized needs that 76 day fallow period so just treating the fish in separate qt tanks doesn’t eliminate the problem in the tank I may have miss understood his description of his method that is entirely possible. Just like I feel we all are in agreement that if done appropriately you can eliminate ich, velvet and other diseases from your system what we are having the disagreement on is the achievable level of success by the average reefer or even the for profit aqua-culturing facility. To achieve success you have to have a dedicated multi faceted approach with individuals who pay attention to detail. It also must be repeatable and have sound checks and balances. Just look at your average LFS and you will see my point I haven’t been to a single LFS that doesn’t have pests, algal problems , and fish losses due to disease or poor care. These places are a good example of the workers in the aquaculture industry. Just because we have pride in our systems doesn’t mean everyone does. Not to mention many reefers are reefing on a budget and cannot afford the nicest most accurate equipment or to have multi systems available for qt purposes then tack on the cost of water, salts, meds I just don’t think 100% eradication is plausible for a majority of aquarist. Then to tack those cost on at a massive scale for a for profit aquaculture company doesn’t make financial sense as most aquaculture species only sale for 15% or so above wild caught. Aquaculture facilities do what they can to ensure a clean healthy product I am sure if not you won’t have repeat customers or word of mouth customers that being said it’s also not i their best interest to spend more raising and treating livestock than what they can sell them for.

Ideally you would do the ttm before putting the fish in the tank. Then qt for 2 weeks to make sure it worked.
I don’t think the average person is capable of keeping ich out of an aquarium. I never said that. In fact I would assume most people do not have the knowledge, skill, equipment, and patience that it takes to keep ich out. But if I read what you just said correctly and you are saying it is possible to keep ich out of an aquarium, then I agree with that.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

But for the record I do think biota has the skills, knowledge, and patience to keep parasites out of their tanks. They are the only people on planet earth able to breed yellow tangs for goodness sake. Their entire livelihood depends on it. They have an entire staff that would have more knowledge combined than an 1 of us idiots on the internet.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

But for the record I do think biota has the skills, knowledge, and patience to keep parasites out of their tanks. They are the only people on planet earth able to breed yellow tangs for goodness sake. Their entire livelihood depends on it. They have an entire staff that would have more knowledge combined than an 1 of us idiots on the internet.

I think we were having two different arguments because we do agree I think our own definitions and expectations for the hobby are what differs, as far as Biota goes I am sure the original owners and entrepreneurs have the dedication however I don’t count on the same level of care as tasks get delegated down to new employees as it’s the m.o. of these younger generations to want maximum pay for the least amount of effort which is kinda shown in how dependent we have become on monitors and controllers in this hobby, instead of testing and dosing ourselves heck we even automate water changes lol. I hope you have a great weekend and good night I am sorry if I offended anyone or if anyone feels like I was misleading, reading posts is kind of subjective and hard to determine what someone is aiming to accomplish without interpreting it with your own biases. I have a masters in biology I didn’t specialize in marine biology I was working towards my MD until I got injured in Afghanistan and suffered a TBI which has caused me alot
Of cognitive difficulties and halted my education. I keep reefs as a therapy for myself I also have four German Shepherds, three cats, a python, and canary lol my house is a zoo but they help calm me. I haven’t been able to find that article I had read about the autoimmune response that certain marine fish have that mimics ich I thought it was on reef central or Humblefish but couldn’t find it maybe it was removed and I apologize for spreading that info without being able to produce the source. I have seen references to a lymphatic issue that presents similarly but usually resolves on its own.

 

[vetteguy53081]

This site has certain rules and respect is one of them. The "Troll " name calling is childish and the conversation can be conducted without the insults and challenges. Staff is now aware of this

 

[Lionfish hunter]

reading posts is kind of subjective and hard to determine what someone is aiming to accomplish without interpreting it with your own biases.

Yeah this happens a lot. It is difficult to interpret what others are saying much of the time. And people certainly consistently interpret things I say differently from what I mean, evident with how mad people tend to get with me on things I never could imagine would elicit such responses! Have a good weekend man.