Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

[Tamberav]

When my tank/equiptment dries out... it is generally for weeks, sometimes months. I don't QT often. I would never call towel dry to be dry.. that is just a beginner mistake. Generally is it best to have doubles or triples of everything, more so if you do fish more often as pumps or such do not dry out easily and have nooks and crannies so they need to be left for extended period.

I just often used an air stone and air line and used new every batch.

 

[MnFish1]

Also you weren’t directing that net scenario at me, another member

To be perfectly honest - I don't remember to whom it was directed. It's still the same answer and you responded....

 

[Tamberav]

Anywho... people mess up QT all the time and people add wet corals all the time and only QT fish.. sure.. it is difficult to keep ich out when you collect every hot new coral or replenish your CUC every 6 months, something bound to happen.

However, Ich can die in copper and glass doesn't absorb it. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

or worse because I don’t see something, it’s cured and doesn’t exist in my tank.

When you put 5 tangs in a tank that has never had ich and there is no ich for 2 years with 0 ich management, no spots, no scratching. It can be assumed beyond a reasonable doubt they don’t have ich. Not sure why you find this so outrageous. Anybody who knows anything about saltwater ich would be able to see that.

 

[MnFish1]

When you put 5 tangs in a tank that has never had ich and there is no ich for 2 years with 0 ich management, no spots, no scratching. It can be assumed beyond a reasonable doubt they don’t have ich. Not sure why you find this so outrageous. Anybody who knows anything about saltwater ich would be able to see that.

this is also not true - its statistically unlikely but it is not 100%.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

this is also not true - its statistically unlikely but it is not 100%.

That’s almost exactly what I said. Beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean 100%.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Anywho... people mess up QT all the time and people add wet corals all the time and only QT fish.. sure.. it is difficult to keep ich out when you collect every hot new coral or replenish your CUC every 6 months, something bound to happen.

However, Ich can die in copper and glass doesn't absorb it. It's not rocket surgery.

I agree just there are too many variables to say you can achieve an absolute with anything like someone mentioned before anything we use to treat the issue is only as good as the stability and implementation all chemicals degrade over time and certain exposures like temp and light speed up these degradation processes and when using test kits or meters to chase certain concentrations to achieve therapeutic effect those numbers are only as accurate as the calibration, the purity of the sample
And the users ability to replicate the process exactly every time. So as you said hypothetical situations as to how ich can be reintroduced there are many real possibilities that it may have never been fully eradicated in the first place. So many of us feel it’s safer to error in the side of caution and treat your system as if it’s still present just undetectable. Kind of like the situation that HIV carriers experience with the new medication regimens that get there levels to undetectable levels of HIV which makes them far less likely to transmit the disease and keeps it from going to full blown AIDS but given the right circumstances they could once again become contagious and deal with life threatening or ending symptoms.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

When you put 5 tangs in a tank that has never had ich and there is no ich for 2 years with 0 ich management, no spots, no scratching. It can be assumed beyond a reasonable doubt they don’t have ich. Not sure why you find this so outrageous. Anybody who knows anything about saltwater ich would be able to see that.

Do you know there are two different types of ICH? One the parasite that we normally see and the second if an immune response some what like having chickenpox

 

[MnFish1]

Do you know there are two different types of ICH? One the parasite that we normally see and the second if an immune response some what like having chickenpox

there are likely far more than 2 types ic Ich.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

there are likely far more than 2 types ic Ich.

You are correct as with every organism you have mutations and variants however I only am familiar with the two but if you know of more types and identifiers and treatments for them I am all ears.

 

[Tamberav]

Did you just talk about copper and degrading.. really.

It’s not an antibiotic, it’s not prazipro. Copper has a long shelf life.

Ya don’t use the bottle from 20 years ago and don’t cook it in the car in direct sun.

The dosages given are already overshooting and hanna sells kits to check calibration.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Then put your fish were your mouth is! And literally every respectable aquarist knows that ich can not be eradicated it can just be controlled. Tell me this since you’re clearly a biologist and a medical professional what disease in the last two thousand years has man been able to completely eradicate from the human species? I ask you this because of the billions of dollars in research peoples entire lives devoted to eradicating one disease process over entire lifetimes and yet we have only been attempting to medicate fish and animals for possibly the last 100 years with no where near the funds or manpower dedicated to it and you believe we can 100% eradicate one of their diseases and haven’t been able to do it to a single disease that effects the human race?!

Actually, marine ich, Cryptocaryon can be functionally eliminated from aquariums given a proper quarantine process. If there are no outbreaks in X years, then what metric do you have to say it is still present, but not active?

I managed a 140,000 gallon system where all fish going into it went through the quarantine process we list here. From 2014 until now, there has been no observable external parasites of any type seen on the fish. In fact, in my 50 years of working with aquariums, the only active protozoan diseases I've had were breakthroughs due to no, or improper quarantine.

Jay

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Did you just talk about copper and degrading.. really.

It’s not an antibiotic, it’s not prazipro. Copper has a long shelf life.

Ya don’t use the bottle from 20 years ago and don’t cook it in the car in direct sun.

The dosages given are already overshooting and hanna sells kits to check calibration.

I did not refer to copper directly as degrading over time however our Copper test kit reagents do degrade over time and many people continue to utilize testing kits well past their expiration dates.

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

Actually, marine ich, Cryptocaryon can be functionally eliminated from aquariums given a proper quarantine process. If there are no outbreaks in X years, then what metric do you have to say it is still present, but not active?

I managed a 140,000 gallon system where all fish going into it went through the quarantine process we list here. From 2014 until now, there has been no observable external parasites of any type seen on the fish. In fact, in my 50 years of working with aquariums, the only active protozoan diseases I've had were breakthroughs due to no, or improper quarantine.

Jay

Jay I agree with you and I agree a proper well executed quarantine will reduce and effectively eliminate ich, however what I am saying is with the reintroduction of new inhabitants such as CUC members and with human error in improper quarantine most home aquarist will never be able to obtain a 100% disease free system, i also don’t feel that most aquaculture environments who introduce new breeding stock periodically to keep the diversity in the gene pool in order to prevent genetic mutations through in breeding can guarantee a 100% disease free environment as well it takes too many steps that allow for human error. That being said one form of ICH is also an auto immune response that appears when an animal has been stressed no medication can remove an animals autoimmune response. We can treat autoimmune we can’t rid it.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Jay I agree with you and I agree a proper well executed quarantine will reduce and effectively eliminate ich, however what I am saying is with the reintroduction of new inhabitants such as CUC members and with human error in improper quarantine most home aquarist will never be able to obtain a 100% disease free system, i also don’t feel that most aquaculture environments who introduce new breeding stock periodically to keep the diversity in the gene pool in order to prevent genetic mutations through in breeding can guarantee a 100% disease free environment as well it takes too many steps that allow for human error. That being said one form of ICH is also an auto immune response that appears when an animal has been stressed no medication can remove an animals autoimmune response. We can treat autoimmune we can’t rid it.

“And literally every respectable aquarist knows that ich can not be eradicated it can just be controlled.”
-Whiskeyboy85

“Literally nobody has come to your aid saying that ich can be eradicated yet multiple of us have given you valid information showing the opposite.”
-Whiskeyboy85

When you say you agreed with Jay and that a proper qt procedure will effectively eliminate ich. Are you saying you can eliminate ich? Jay said ich can be eliminated. Because if you are why did we argue with each other for hours on this? The above 2 quotes from you are a few examples.

 

[Wildreefs]

Did you just talk about copper and degrading.. really.

It’s not an antibiotic, it’s not prazipro. Copper has a long shelf life.

Ya don’t use the bottle from 20 years ago and don’t cook it in the car in direct sun.

The dosages given are already overshooting and hanna sells kits to check calibration.

Copper does precipitate over time , even in a tank with no rock. Takes months , but I’ve seen it come down by itself in the test kit over time with no water changes or rock to adhere to. I’ve also seen it drop quickly, and it had precipitated on a glass heater , enough to turn the hole glass tube of the heater blue like a snow cone

 

[Whiskeyboy84]

“And literally every respectable aquarist knows that ich can not be eradicated it can just be controlled.”
-Whiskeyboy85

“Literally nobody has come to your aid saying that ich can be eradicated yet multiple of us have given you valid information showing the opposite.”
-Whiskeyboy85

When you say you agreed with Jay and that a proper qt procedure will effectively eliminate ich. Are you saying you can eliminate ich? Jay said ich can be eliminated. Because if you are why did we argue with each other for hours on this? The above 2 quotes from you are a few examples.

That’s because I agree that the symptoms of this particular strand can be removed and can be kept at bay however ich is kind of a broad spectrum term for a group of symptoms that we see in our fish. Look at ich as you would the chicken pox once you get it you can be “cured” but the virus stays dormant in your system for life and some people during periods of stress who have had the chickenpox will develop shingles during these periods of stress and become contagious again it’s the same infection from the initial introduction of chickenpox but may lay dormant for decades. I agree the initial pathogen can be treated I just don’t agree it can be 100% eliminated which I have said this entire time. I have also proposed that human error and accidental reintroduction may be higher than we want to admit and with human error you cannot achieve 100% absolutes which was the argument in the first place. For people who feel the absence of signs and symptoms is proof of absence then why do you dip a healthy looking wild caught fish? It’s because the pathogen can be there without evidence. So to say in absolutes that these pathogens can’t survive “dormant” or at untraceable levels within our systems is just false and misleading. When you dive in the ocean you don’t see ich infested fish floundering around everywhere so would you say that portion of the ocean is ich free?

 

[Tamberav]

Copper does precipitate over time , even in a tank with no rock. Takes months , but I’ve seen it come down by itself in the test kit over time with no water changes or rock to adhere to. I’ve also seen it drop quickly, and it had precipitated on a glass heater , enough to turn the hole glass tube of the heater blue like a snow cone

Fish don't get treated for months though.

I am literally just trying to be realistic here. Not like... well under THIS scenario..... if your hannah checker doesn't work or you use copper from the stone ages..

ya and if the supplier accidently puts blue water in your copper power, it won't work either.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

That’s because I agree that the symptoms of this particular strand can be removed and can be kept at bay however ich is kind of a broad spectrum term for a group of symptoms that we see in our fish. Look at ich as you would the chicken pox once you get it you can be “cured” but the virus stays dormant in your system for life and some people during periods of stress who have had the chickenpox will develop shingles during these periods of stress and become contagious again it’s the same infection from the initial introduction of chickenpox but may lay dormant for decades. I agree the initial pathogen can be treated I just don’t agree it can be 100% eliminated which I have said this entire time. I have also proposed that human error and accidental reintroduction may be higher than we want to admit and with human error you cannot achieve 100% absolutes which was the argument in the first place. For people who feel the absence of signs and symptoms is proof of absence then why do you dip a healthy looking wild caught fish? It’s because the pathogen can be there without evidence. So to say in absolutes that these pathogens can’t survive “dormant” or at untraceable levels within our systems is just false and misleading. When you dive in the ocean you don’t see ich infested fish floundering around everywhere so would you say that portion of the ocean is ich free?

Your response to Jay confused me on your position, but you clarified.

You are picking and choosing what human virus to compare ich to. You picked a chronic disease but there are also a million acute diseases that your body completely gets rid of that do not remain dormant. Or more appropriately (yet still not that relevant) you could compare ich to a human parasite. Which basically all I can think of off the top of my head can be completely cured.

And no, nobody can say they are 100% sure their fish do not have ich. Even though there are situations where it would be insanely unlikely ich is present. But you can say that ich can 100% be cured through proper treatment much like you can say tape worms in humans can be 100% cured. but you can’t take 1 case where someone had a tapeworm and say 100% he has been cured without cutting that person open. Just that it is so likely he is cured that it can just about be assumed.

I can tell you ich can be cured. I have 20 years of experience with it. And I can just about guarantee you that if I went to Petco and bought a fish with ich, every single one of my fish would have ich in a matter of days. I have seen it so many times and I am more confident about this happening that I am about almost anything. If my pervious fish that had never had a single symptom of ich all of a sudden got ich and died when I exposed them to a fish with ich. Why would you think there was already ich in the tank, why would they all of a sudden be overtaken by something they had all along? This is such a repeatable situation!

And ich is a parasite with a very simple life cycle. The parasite dies without a host in just a few days. There are multiple ways that are so undeniably proven to break this life cycle that truly believing ich cannot be cured is on par with thinking the earth is flat.

And lastly you will get almost nobody on here agreeing with you, the absolute vast majority of people on this forum know ich can be cured.

 

[Tamberav]

Chicken pox is a virus.