Are “Basement Vendors” Ruining The Reefing Industry?

[BeanAnimal]

lol @ triggered. You know it’s not a fair argument when you pick each end of the spectrum like that. It’s clearly biased.

Yes. You are attempting to create a chastising argument about points that were not even close to being made regarding an “argument” that was not being made using context that was not meant or alluded to.

You use the term “biased” but can’t define that bias because you clearly missed where I stand on the bulk of the conversation and the OPs question, even after spelling it out in the prior response. You are too busy being offended by what you thought I said and now trying to redefine what I said to argue about it.

The examples stand for the purpose they were created for and solely in the context that they were provided. Attempting to open a tangent argument about COG as it relates to the hypothetical seller, his parents or a leprechaun granting wishes, services no purpose to the point.

My position in this thread has been patently clear and it is certainly not against people selling coral out of the homes at ANY price under ANY model nor is at all against LFSs or their pricing model.

 

[drbark]

I keep using this analogy but it sticks this time. As a veterinarian, what drives me crazy is the breeders. They keep breeding crazy breeds at crazy prices having no regards to genetics or health. It's all about the money for them. One breeder was selling French Bulldogs for $4500 a piece. It's crazy. They have no laws to protect the species. Anyone can do it in their backyard so to speak. People come in and say they can't afford vaccines etc and I tell them next time get one from the pound. $100 and already vaccinated and fixed. I have to deal with it and play nice but I get it. As long there is no regulation, people are going to go for the profit motive. Some breeders are ethical and don't make that much money and do it for the love of that specific breed, but it's not common.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I keep using this analogy but it sticks this time. As a veterinarian, what drives me crazy is the breeders. They keep breeding crazy breeds at crazy prices having no regards to genetics or health. It's all about the money for them. One breeder was selling French Bulldogs for $4500 a piece. It's crazy. They have no laws to protect the species. Anyone can do it in their backyard so to speak. People come in and say they can't afford vaccines etc and I tell them next time get one from the pound. $100 and already vaccinated and fixed. I have to deal with it and play nice but I get it. As long there is no regulation, people are going to go for the profit motive. Some breeders are ethical and don't make that much money and do it for the love of that specific breed, but it's not common.

I had a former coworker whose spouse is a breeder of Frenchies. It is pretty similar to very high end coral, as their clients were all affluent people, some were even celebrities. She got licensed and administered the vaccines herself, and made the clients sign a lot of paperwork pertaining to keeping up on the vaccinations and such. But yeah, the puppies were 4-5k each! Lol! Too rich for me!

 

[C_AWOL]

I can't answer for every lfs out there but the one I usually shop at barely makes profit right now by the end of the day despite the universally raising prices (they're really open with me since I've been a customer for an extremely long time). $1000 in sales today is significantly less profit than $1000 in sales a few years ago due to massive margin compression.

It's not a cheap or easy business to run considering employees + utilities + massive upfront cost of product (both livestock and dry goods) and losses (which are inevitable)

This is literally their cost price for instant ocean regardless of how many boxes they buy that I was shown

This is petcos retail (which with discount for 1-2 boxes is cheaper than their cost and the most common hobbyist would never buy more than 2 boxes in a given year)


Imagine the feeling of "this lfs is gouging me" on this api test kit for ~$40 when their profits are a measly 5.69 sans shipping cost because amazon sells it for $28 which is far under the cost of $34.31 (Free shipping mostly only exist on the consumer side)

So do basement vendors hurt lfs (both good and bad)? Definitely. Their bread and butter is usually the lower end stuff with generally low-medium margins (quicker to move and often times easier to maintain/absorb losses) which inadvertently grow quickly and easily for the basement vendor to undercut easily without them having to consider the same upkeep cost. Fighting both basement vendors and online vendors for sales of livestock + drygoods becomes extremely rough on all of them since they need to find a balance for profit on both ends of the spectrum so they can actually stay in operation and live.

At least in my visits to various LFS I don't see people often rushing to buy the "latest and greatest" oddly named overpriced coral with 1 small difference/deformity/is actually bleached for $$$-$$$$. It's usually those $5-40 everyday coral frags so going the direction of "cool and interesting" isn't always the right answer either when it won't sell as quickly and has a higher loss potential.

 

[drbark]

I had a former coworker whose spouse is a breeder of Frenchies. It is pretty similar to very high end coral, as their clients were all affluent people, some were even celebrities. She got licensed and administered the vaccines herself, and made the clients sign a lot of paperwork pertaining to keeping up on the vaccinations and such. But yeah, the puppies were 4-5k each! Lol! Too rich for me!

Exactly. That breeder is ethical and cares about the breed. It's though for me. On one side I would love to get rid of those breeders by not providing any services, but at the end of the day, the poor animal that has done nothing wrong doesn't get good healthcare.

 

[TysTanks]

Yes. You are attempting to create a chastising argument about points that were not even close to being made regarding an “argument” that was not being made using context that was not meant or alluded to.

You use the term “biased” but can’t define that bias because you clearly missed where I stand on the bulk of the conversation and the OPs question, even after spelling it out in the prior response. You are too busy being offended by what you thought I said and now trying to redefine what I said to argue about it.

The examples stand for the purpose they were created for and solely in the context that they were provided. Attempting to open a tangent argument about COG as it relates to the hypothetical seller, his parents or a leprechaun granting wishes, services no purpose to the point.

My position in this thread has been patently clear and it is certainly not against people selling coral out of the homes at ANY price under ANY model nor is at all against LFSs or their pricing model.

Here’s the thing, I could totally go back and read all of the comments you’ve written on the subject, but I have not and likely won’t. The point I’ve made is that the scenario you created there is unnecessarily introducing bias to a situation that does not require it to make your point. People read standalone comments and don’t make it to the ends of threads all the time. It’s an unfortunate stereotype that all people who sell coral from their homes live in their mom’s basement just like it would be if I said all shop owners are greedy and deliberately are irresponsible with livestock to make a quick buck. This type of context in your ‘scenario’ does in fact matter otherwise you would not introduce them in such a way.

Secondly, on COGS, whether you feel this is a tangent or not YOU have again introduced said subject. I’ve brought this up because I’m concerned that you’re not seeing the clear bias in your position.

I’m glad you feel your position is clear. You may have whatever opinion you wish, but I think any argument is made weaker with these sorts of fallacies introduced.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yep. My LFS started doing that right before Covid. He only had one or two items for emergencies for his patrons. I get it. As a Veterinarian, my clients ask me all the time if they can get that item or prescription on Chewy or something. It's annoying but it's 2024.

Yes - the LFS has to straddle that fence. Selling dry goods at a loss to be competitive and keeping people in the store or just keeping some on hand, likely expensive, to service customers in need that are willing to pay for convenience.

The above salt example is a perfect example. That meant that the $5 - $10 of margin loss selling you salt needs to be made up on the $15 coral frag that is priced at $18 and they need to sell 10 of those frags to make the whole thing balance out.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Salt is one of the few things I can’t buy at wholesale price when factoring in shipping, as retailers don’t usually get free shipping. The only good way would be to buy a pallet of it, but then it has to be shipped to a warehouse to be offloaded. So I shop around like everyone else, or trade in coral for it.

 

[bubbgee]

Stores are expensive but offer variety and ease of purchase rather than meeting some shady guy who sells coral out of their basement. I've had some weird encounters with "reefers". While the deals are good on livestock and equipment there are certain things I like to get from vendors that you can't from reefers. Also I sell corals for cheap $10 to $20 usually. It promotes the hobby, gets to spread certain pieces around so more of those pieces exist and can be shared, and it makes the hobby more affordable. I can tell you there are so many people that love this hobby and would like to get certain pieces but they can't because of the cost so basement vendors help encourage the hobby to grow. Sucks for the lfs because they can't compete with basement vendors prices

Actually, after the initial hesitation, I've met lots of amazing hobbyists and got lots of great deals. This hobby can be lonely at times and this method helps me connect. People who were initially strangers are so helpful with issues and provided me with their tips and secrets. Since then, I am willing to give them a shot.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Here’s the thing, I could totally go back and read all of the comments you’ve written on the subject, but I have not and likely won’t. The point I’ve made is that the scenario you created there is unnecessarily introducing bias to a situation

You just outright admitted you did not read what I said before commenting, but insist that there is "bias" in it based on a word or phrase.

Conversation over, I am not entertaining nonsense like this.

 

[Doctorgori]

I think that people forget that the LFS do more than just sale coral and fish

A seller with ZERO cost of goodsx vs one who bears a TREMENDOUS cost of goods and everything in between.

expanding on that
I watched a new LFS in my area spring up, in 5yrs it had at least 5 full time employees, many with families, that have to have groceries, go to movies and buy gas…you get the picture

There are side bennie’s to supporting the local economy besides/in addition to the taxes

Might be room for a tolerable percentage of garage biz’s if viewed from both a possible biz trend or a stepping stone to a legit tax paying startup

edit

 

[JMello]

My local garage vendor prices are similar to my LFS and the quality is about the same. I'm lucky I have a good LFS. He's a small business but he's been doing it for many years and seems fair. I also have access to whole sale (with mild mark up) from LA and the prices are similar to his as well. Being a business owner my self that started in his garage i can see it both ways. For me the choice is easy because the prices aren't much different. The best deals I get though are from people trading. I just listed a Algae scrubber and the guy who traded me for some corals had a great selection and he was super generous with his trade. I've also had another guy who sells on offer up really hook me up with a ton of coral. I try to support my LFS when ever i can, as it's nice having one 20min from my house.

 

[Doctorgori]

well. Being a business owner my self that started in his garage i can see it both ways.

there has to be room for startup, Taxes, regulations and a myriad of other cost are just expense prohibitive to begin as a brick n mortar

Anyway, frag slinging has many parallels to many other illicit trades:

• small size, weight and relative low transport cost
• a potential for rare/high demand/hard to get goods
• potential for obsessive/compulsive/addictive characteristics
• easily reproducible or easy to acquire the skill set to reproduce, transport and sell
• high marin potential/High profit ceiling

I don’t sell, but easy to understand the draw

 

[alindell]

Actually, after the initial hesitation, I've met lots of amazing hobbyists and got lots of great deals. This hobby can be lonely at times and this method helps me connect. People who were initially strangers are so helpful with issues and provided me with their tips and secrets. Since then, I am willing to give them a shot.

That's true. There are some people that I've invited over that gave me a really uneasy feeling.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Reading comprehension isn’t your strong point. The comment says I did not read every comment
There isn’t enough time in a day to go round in circles with you trying to explain it though so I’m good with calling it.

You openly admit (twice) that you didn't bother to read my posts but insist that I am biased and exploiting a stereotype. So you chose to chastise me and fabricate an argument based on your assumption of my position (again without bothering to ever read it) based on a word or phrase in one of my posts. Somehow this equates to me having a lack of reading comprehension skills?

Before you accuse somebody of exploiting stereotypes or being biased or attempt to engage them in an argument, it would be helpful if you read what they had to say to begin with.

Thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's true. There are some people that I've invited over that gave me a really uneasy feeling.

Club members or known local reefers is one thing. I would not invite strangers into my basement for frag trading or a tank tour.

 

[BeanAnimal]

there has to be room for startup, Taxes, regulations and a myriad of other cost are just expense prohibitive to begin as a brick n mortar

Yes barriers to entry are adding to the cost. Some areas are far worse than others.

 

[PharmrJohn]

I have a "garage seller" that was in charge of the local LFS coral for a long time. Here garage and home is full of tanks and coral. Way more than the LFS, more selection, small colony's as apposed to small frags and way cheaper. She is 5 minutes away has become a great friend, great knowledge of coral and reefing. She has a lot of old school acro that is hard to find on the interwebs. As far as them making a dent on brick and mortar? I think the few people that buy from the home sellers in my area are far out numbered by the ones that go to LFS or online.

I'm so jealous. I'd LOVE to have that kind of availability. In my mind it's of extreme importance to support small businesses. I'll even go into our small downtown area and pay more for something rather than doing Amazon or the like.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Salt is one of the few things I can’t buy at wholesale price when factoring in shipping, as retailers don’t usually get free shipping. The only good way would be to buy a pallet of it, but then it has to be shipped to a warehouse to be offloaded. So I shop around like everyone else, or trade in coral for it.

While it has been years, we used to arrange group buys for the club through one or more LFSs here in Pittsburgh.
It gave club members a reason to use the LFS and gave the LFS some traffic on salt that would have gone online or to big box. Typically the only stipulation was that we pay them and take responsibility for collecting funds and that the salt be picked up on delivery day or within a few days.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I'm so jealous. I'd LOVE to have that kind of availability. In my mind it's of extreme importance to support small businesses. I'll even go into our small downtown area and pay more for something rather than doing Amazon or the like.

Not to make you more jealous,buuuuttttt, this lime in the sky was 30.00 from my source.

As apposed to a frag for 60.00-80.00

Here is a West Side Tort that I got from her about a year ago.