I was just saying to my husband, "I wonder if these online auctions, where things are being sold at a fraction of standard price, are changing the pricing practices of some online vendors? Or their frag size for the price!"
Are “Basement Vendors” Ruining The Reefing Industry?
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I have a toadstool that is big enough that I could probably give a frag to every single R2Rer.... Is love to do tha, for so many reasons!
ReeferZ1227
Valuable Member
This is where I'm at as well.
Im not a fan of chop shops. What I mean by that, is taking fresh off the freight maris, chopping and listing for sale - it hurts everyone, and i dont mean from being able to take sub $100 colonies, break them down and flip XL frags for $30.
I mean that reefers that dont know how it all works, buying coral, coral dieing, and then the reefers thinking they did something wrong, chasing non-existant issues, and then creating issues/crashes as a result. Then they leave the hobby and all vendors big and small, lose.
if youre taking in maris - baking and dipping corals for a couple months, and weeding out the unhealthy pieces and pests, i have no qualms. I like that theres a maricultured and aquacultured market, not that I think one is better than the other personally.
The real damage is the sale of unhealthy corals, and photographs which materially misrepresent (both crimes of fraud and theft by deception) the colors of corals. Last would be the inconsistency of the naming convention (the entire torch market).
A well operated garage/basement farm is as legit as any LFS IMO. Its like complaining about the guy who owns his commercial property but you havr to pay rent and cant compete with his margins. Sucks to suck.
stewy14
2500 Club Member
How dare somebody insult you like that! You know so well on here!!
But obviously that guy doesn’t really know what he’s talking about so can we all calm down please
But obviously that guy doesn’t really know what he’s talking about so can we all calm down please
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Scottiemac
Active Member
To my knowledge, the only major one is That Pet Place/That Fish Place in Lancaster.
There used to be the Hidden Reef in Bensalem, but I think they're online-only now, and brand specific.
A smaller place was East Coast Aquatics until they had their "accidental" electrical fire.
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This is a very interesting topic. As a "basement vendor" myself, I'd love to give my $0.02.
From the LFS perspective, I think I would be pretty upset about basement vendors. They show up at frag swaps with corals, have small margins due to almost no overhead (because they have fewer expenses), and undercut all the LFS prices. This is an extremely competitive business, so there's absolutely no question that this has an impact.
From my perspective, we are able to get some really, really unique pieces and take risks that most LFS's would not be able to take. We grab lots of speciosa, lokani, and cherry-pick specific LPS that no LFS around us would bother with, and charge a really fair price for them.
So, to answer the question, I think there is definitely room for both. I see both types of vendors as extremely important to the hobby, and I think they serve different purposes.
From the LFS perspective, I think I would be pretty upset about basement vendors. They show up at frag swaps with corals, have small margins due to almost no overhead (because they have fewer expenses), and undercut all the LFS prices. This is an extremely competitive business, so there's absolutely no question that this has an impact.
From my perspective, we are able to get some really, really unique pieces and take risks that most LFS's would not be able to take. We grab lots of speciosa, lokani, and cherry-pick specific LPS that no LFS around us would bother with, and charge a really fair price for them.
So, to answer the question, I think there is definitely room for both. I see both types of vendors as extremely important to the hobby, and I think they serve different purposes.
Gellisjr1
Active Member
As a reefer/ consumer located in an area with very limited LFS to choose from and NO reefing clubs to join. My favorite LFS store is an hour and half round trip drive. They do offer a nice yet limited selection of coral. They just don't always have what I want available. The pricing there is very fair IMO. I just wish they carried more variety. I find online coral auctions interactive, fun & offer the best value. For example some of your more well known online sellers of coral will sell a 1 inch Zoanthid frag plug with only one or two polyps for $40 or more. I think this is a huge rip off and aggravating when they melt away or never grow out. I refuse to buy any Zoanthid frags anymore with only one or two polyps. Especially when I can buy the same Zoanthids from my online auction sellers with 10-15 polyps on it for the same price. I feel I have much better success purchasing a small colony of Zoanthids, not to mention it's certainly more gratifying when you add a small colony and it actually looks like you added something to the tank. Some of these auction guys do operate an LFS and are very smart business men. They run the online auctions after hours opening themselves up to a much larger customer base increasing sales and revenue which also brings increased purchasing power that is passed on in value to the consumer.
Northern Flicker
Valuable Member
AI is an excellent way for people with money to gain the skills that employees would normally offer without having to pay employees. It will be great in a few fields but for most of us, it's an incoming nightmare.
LARedstickreefer
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Nothing sucks more than giving a LFS/Online Retailer $100 and getting a booger sized frag when I can give someone in their basement $50 and get a mini colony…
areefer01
2500 Club Member
This term tends to be misused. Remember that small businesses need profit to pay their employees as well as run and maintain expenses. Trying to determine what shelf space to keep products that move which in turn generates revenue is a difficult task more so depending on location. Hobbyist on-line buying power and ease of access makes the brick and mortar fish stores a real challenge. MAP doesn't help any either. Some items there are high profit margins others not so much.
To the OP's question are they ruining? No, probably not. However social media content propping up the side hustle isn't helping any either in my opinion. The side hustle promotes quick turn over. Lots of quick purchases, then cutting small frags, and reselling as quick as possible. Not much time to heal let alone establish to the grow out system. Smaller scale.
This isn't even factoring in the effort to promote quick growth for said turnaround. Dosing ammonia, higher alkalinity, aminos, pH, etc. Taking frags from those systems and placing in those without or with more traditional means is that good, bad, or just a mind story.
Isn’t this like the most lucrative part of owning a small business with small margins? You are cutting yourself short man!
Funny you say that. Some of the worst advice I’ve seen around here comes in the form of “my LFS said to dump this bottle in my tank”.
LARedstickreefer
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Hence the “good” added
My old LFS was one of the good ones. He sold his corals at really fair prices. $50 was essentially his “don’t want to sell this” price.
He told me that the money isn’t in corals, it’s in the services (tank cleaning and maintenance). That kept him pretty tied up. He’d sell you a nice coral or fish for a good price to hook you…
He once sent me home with his apogee (fully trusting me) when he suspected my lights were too weak. Turns out he was right and that solved my sps problems.
Basement sellers indeed provide an accessible and often local source for high-quality corals to enthusiasts who may not have a nearby local fish store . By participating in frag swaps, club events, and regional meetups, these sellers help ensure that rare and high-end corals reach fellow hobbyists at reasonable prices. However, their impact on the overall aquarium retail market is often limited because many basement sellers don’t ship and rely on personal networks or local clubs for their customer base.
That said, if we step back and look at the broader picture, the long-term viability of the hobby depends on a continuous influx of new hobbyists. Demand is crucial, and LFSs play an irreplaceable role as the first point of contact for many beginners. Unlike basement sellers, LFSs are highly visible and accessible, drawing in casual visitors or people interested in starting their first tank. Through knowledgeable staff and attractive displays, they serve as ambassadors of the hobby, offering new entrants a hands-on experience that sparks interest and confidence.
Without new hobbyists, the demand for corals, fish, and equipment would dwindle. Retailers, wholesalers, and even coral farmers would feel the effects of a shrinking customer base. New entrants drive demand, which sustains the entire supply chain—from coral propagation and equipment sales to aquarium maintenance services. Wholesalers need LFSs to keep their inventories moving, and without them, the hobby could face a decline in available livestock and product diversity.
For areas with good LFSs, it's essential to support them, as they offer a level of service and expertise that basement sellers might not provide, particularly to beginners. A healthy LFS often serves as a community hub, organizing workshops, offering advice, and being a reliable resource for hobbyists at all levels. If you are fortunate to have a knowledgeable and dedicated LFS, it’s worth supporting them through purchases, even if some items might be slightly cheaper elsewhere.
On the other hand, basement coral sellers can serve a complementary role. By focusing on specialized coral propagation and keeping prices reasonable, they can make rare or high-end specimens more accessible. Their efforts in propagation can also reduce pressure on wild coral populations, contributing to sustainable practices within the hobby. The hobby needs both thriving retailers and passionate basement sellers to ensure that a healthy balance is maintained between accessibility, expertise, and sustainability.
In the end, it’s a community effort. Whether you're buying from a local fish store or a basement seller, every dollar spent helps ensure the future viability of the reef-keeping hobby.
everyone be well and happy reefing!
That said, if we step back and look at the broader picture, the long-term viability of the hobby depends on a continuous influx of new hobbyists. Demand is crucial, and LFSs play an irreplaceable role as the first point of contact for many beginners. Unlike basement sellers, LFSs are highly visible and accessible, drawing in casual visitors or people interested in starting their first tank. Through knowledgeable staff and attractive displays, they serve as ambassadors of the hobby, offering new entrants a hands-on experience that sparks interest and confidence.
Without new hobbyists, the demand for corals, fish, and equipment would dwindle. Retailers, wholesalers, and even coral farmers would feel the effects of a shrinking customer base. New entrants drive demand, which sustains the entire supply chain—from coral propagation and equipment sales to aquarium maintenance services. Wholesalers need LFSs to keep their inventories moving, and without them, the hobby could face a decline in available livestock and product diversity.
For areas with good LFSs, it's essential to support them, as they offer a level of service and expertise that basement sellers might not provide, particularly to beginners. A healthy LFS often serves as a community hub, organizing workshops, offering advice, and being a reliable resource for hobbyists at all levels. If you are fortunate to have a knowledgeable and dedicated LFS, it’s worth supporting them through purchases, even if some items might be slightly cheaper elsewhere.
On the other hand, basement coral sellers can serve a complementary role. By focusing on specialized coral propagation and keeping prices reasonable, they can make rare or high-end specimens more accessible. Their efforts in propagation can also reduce pressure on wild coral populations, contributing to sustainable practices within the hobby. The hobby needs both thriving retailers and passionate basement sellers to ensure that a healthy balance is maintained between accessibility, expertise, and sustainability.
In the end, it’s a community effort. Whether you're buying from a local fish store or a basement seller, every dollar spent helps ensure the future viability of the reef-keeping hobby.
everyone be well and happy reefing!
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Yeah, but then I have to prove to the IRS that I’m trying to make a living off of it, which I am not. They would consider me a hobbyist. So I just add the business income to my personal income taxes and pay the sales taxes too.
@Reefer Matt you should check with an accountant. You can indeed deduct the expenses within certain limitations. Research it will be worth your time
DIYreefer
Well-Known Member
I sell a decent amount of corals and easily have more on hand ar any given time than both of my LFS's, combined. That said, I have very little to no impact on them. I'm well aware of how important the LFS is to the hobby in general so I intentionally try to NOT sell locally. I don't advertise any of my stuff anywhere but here on r2r and don't do local pick ups. Ive sold to precisely two people locally in the last two years that I've been selling. Both found me here. So no, I don't believe I'm having any sort impact on them at all.
Conversely, I think I may very well be helping one of my LFS in the near future. I reached out to the owner today to see if we can work out some sort of "wholesale" deal where I provide his store with corals on a monthly basis. Im a coral hoarder, and my overstock is getting a bit out of hand so it has to go somewhere, lol.
Conversely, I think I may very well be helping one of my LFS in the near future. I reached out to the owner today to see if we can work out some sort of "wholesale" deal where I provide his store with corals on a monthly basis. Im a coral hoarder, and my overstock is getting a bit out of hand so it has to go somewhere, lol.
Excellent!
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