Aquarium Chemistry Question? Ask the Doctor!

[eliseei78]

So I just got a new tank that I'm planning on turning into a reef tank eventually and to start the nitrogen cycle I took some water out of my already 3 year old established saltwater fish only aquarium and mixed that with the new sea water so I have a colony of bacteria to start with. I also have a dead snail that I saved as gross as that sounds because I heard they were ammonia bombs.... Of course I have nothing living currently in the tank besides bacteria but do you guys think this is a good idea to put it in the tank to help the cycle along?

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Hi
New to this forum and unsure if im posting in the right place but...

I have recently been testing alk and cal every night using hanna checkers for both in order to set up 2 part dosing.
After testing both i adjust my alk using rs foundation and then leave it until the next night.
When i come back to test my alk normaly drops by 0.1-0.2 but my calcium has raised and i dont have a clue how.
I know this sounds crazy but i think it my be the alk im adding is causing it.

16/6
Alk 8.2
Cal 459
Did not adjust anything


18/6
Alk 7.7
Cal 450
Added 14ml alk to raise to 8.1

19/6
Alk 8.1
Cal 462
Did not add anything

20/6
Alk 7.9
Cal 454
Added 7ml alk to reach 8.1

21/6
Alk havent tested yet
Cal 455

Anth - Welcome to the forum. Yes, this would be the right forum for a chemistry question like this, and you could also post it in the regular chemistry forum pages.

To answer your question, you've got several things going on that are leading to your confusion. The first is that calcium tests just aren't that accurate. They may report to 3 digits, but the last digit certainly isn't meaningful, and the second digit has a fair amount of uncertainty to it. I don't remember the specs on the Hanna calcium checker, but many report that you need to be really scrupulous about the cleanliness of the vials, and use a syringe to measure the liquids into the vial rather than using the "10 mL" mark to get them to read consistently. Regardless, I would suggest that one would not want to make adjustments/take action within +/- 20 ppm of the target. You will find as you continue to test that it may be better to make adjustments to your dosing every 3 or 4 days instead of responding to a nightly measurement.

The other (implied) question you're asking is why the amount of calcium and alkalinity you've added to keep levels stable doesn't match. This is quite common in reef tanks, particularly new reef tanks. While coralline algae and stony corals do use carbonate and calcium in a fixed ratio, alkalinity is also consumed in the conversion of ammonia to nitrate. So it's not unusual for a tank to consume more alkalinity than calcium on a molar ratio.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

So I just got a new tank that I'm planning on turning into a reef tank eventually and to start the nitrogen cycle I took some water out of my already 3 year old established saltwater fish only aquarium and mixed that with the new sea water so I have a colony of bacteria to start with. I also have a dead snail that I saved as gross as that sounds because I heard they were ammonia bombs.... Of course I have nothing living currently in the tank besides bacteria but do you guys think this is a good idea to put it in the tank to help the cycle along?

Eliseei - Welcome to Reef 2 Reef. You can start the nitrogen cycle in a new tank in a lot of ways. What you suggested will certainly work, and you can also use other organic nitrogen sources like a cocktail shrimp or even fish food if you'd prefer something a little less stinky. Another way to do it is to add some bottled bacteria (i.e., Fritz Turbostart, Instant Ocean BioSpira, etc...) and inorganic ammonia. If you use this last route, you will want to use an aquarium ammonia made for the purpose, since household ammonia often has other things added to it like scents and detergents.

 

[RichyRich50]

Yeah I was also wondering the same thing?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah I was also wondering the same thing?

What question?

 

[Salty dream]

Calsium reactor effluent through skimmer?

Set up calsium reactor to my tank few days ago and of course ph drops. Now come up idea that if I put outflow of reactor close to skimmer intake skimmer would take most of excess co2 out of effluent water. Skimmer takes mostly organic matters out of water but how much it could decrease effect of calsium reactor if effluent goes through skimmer?

 

[specwar]

Why is my tank "cloudy" in the morning when the lights come on but clears up during the day? No changes in the filter or anything like that. Thanks

 

[mfinn]

@Randy Holmes-Farley recently there was a thread about someone using bleach for cleaning rock.
The person mentioned using splashless bleach and everyone said the rock was ruined.
I realize there are other chemicals in the bleach to thicken it.
Why wouldn't using something Prime remove those too?
How can you be sure those other chemicals have been absorbed by the rock and would present a problem?

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Why is my tank "cloudy" in the morning when the lights come on but clears up during the day? No changes in the filter or anything like that. Thanks

That's a tough thing to answer without some details. In other words, that's not a common observation, and would require some troubleshooting. I believe this forum section is primarily intended for somewhat narrow, simple chemistry questions, so it might be best to post this in the main Chemistry section forum to get more attention. I'll flag this for the mods to move it there.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

@Randy Holmes-Farley recently there was a thread about someone using bleach for cleaning rock.
The person mentioned using splashless bleach and everyone said the rock was ruined.
I realize there are other chemicals in the bleach to thicken it.
Why wouldn't using something Prime remove those too?
How can you be sure those other chemicals have been absorbed by the rock and would present a problem?

Prime is a "Proprietary aqueous solution of complexed hydrosulfite salts" (from their MSDS). Sulfites will react with chlorine to oxidize it to chloride (the sulfite goes on to form sulfate).

But the ingredients don't react with detergents, emulsifiers, thickeners, etc... Splashless bleach contains (among other things) detergent (sodium xylene sulfate) and a thickener (sodium polyacrylate). Neither of these would react with sulfites in Prime or other chlorine removers, so they will still be present. The detergents will also adsorb to the rock surface to some extent, but because they are very water soluble, repeated rinsing should remove it.

Bottom line, I don't think rock treated in this way is "ruined" provided it's repeatedly rinsed by immersion in water, allowed to stand for a day, the water changed for fresh, unadulterated water, and this process repeated for at least 4 changes.

But ideally, you'd like to avoid using bleach that contains anything other than sodium hypochlorite and sodium hydroxide (the constituents of "plain" bleach).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley recently there was a thread about someone using bleach for cleaning rock.
The person mentioned using splashless bleach and everyone said the rock was ruined.
I realize there are other chemicals in the bleach to thicken it.
Why wouldn't using something Prime remove those too?
How can you be sure those other chemicals have been absorbed by the rock and would present a problem?

I can't be sure if it is or is not a problem, but there's no reason to think Prime can remove polymers (thickeners).

 

[jose hernandez]

setting up a waterbox 190.5 system it measures 60x26x24 i wanna go heay sps dominant as far as equipment this is what i have
vectra L2 return pump
skimmer sss 220 elite or sss 200 elite
3 radion xr30w g4 pros
4 mp40 quiet drives
apex controller newer version
2 apex dos and 2 ddr
tunze 3155 ato
2 nyos torque 2.0 reactors
want to use a calcium reactor instead of dosing to keep parameters more stable would it be a good idea to start my build with it and if so which is a good one looking at the vertex or geo

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Jose - This might be another question where you'll get more responses in the general Reef Chemistry or Reef Aquarium Discussion forum, since I think the "Ask the Doctor" section is more geared to very specific reef chemistry questions.

I suspect that you'll find that starting a tank with a calcium reactor is not generally necessary/beneficial. The specific reason is that unless you're transferring a lot of mature SPS colonies to your tank, or you're starting with actual live rock (from the ocean), the calcium and alkalinity demand of the new tank will be pretty low. So it can be difficult to "dial down" a calcium reactor sufficiently to get stable calcium and alkalinity parameters for the first few months to even a year.

Long term, a calcium reactor can be a very convenient way to supply a large alkalinity and calcium demand to a more mature tank with rapidly growing corals. However, and especially if you're taking the route of starting with dry rock and bottled bacteria, and you're intending on populating the tank with aquacultured SPS that are typically purchased as frags, you may find that it's considerably easier to dose a 2-part solution, either DIY as published by Randy, or a commercial product such as ESV, and only introduce the calcium reactor once the corals really take off.

 

[jose hernandez]

ok thank you for the advice

 

[Gonzo74]

I recently started using ME Ploy Extender because my coral (SPS) were losing color and bleaching out Mainly I believe due to not being able to keep enough nutrients in my system and running Alkalinity at 9.5. I have since slowly moved my alkalinity to 8.5 but it is raising on its own with the same dosing schedule and am still have issues keeping nutrients.

My questions is, will running ME Polyp Extender (Amino Acids), cause my coral to not consume alkalinity? Ever since I started using it, my alkalinity intake has dramatically slowed down from 1dhk a day to about .3 dkh a day. I have slowed down my 3 part dosing (aquaforest) to maintain a stable alkalinity level.

Could there be any relation between adding amino acids to taking in less alkalinity?

Colors have improved though.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

No, there's no direct chemistry correlation between the addition of amino acids and alkalinity in a tank. However, alterations to the biology in the tank is another matter. It's possible that the amino acid mix you're using contains some amount of ethanol as a solubility promoter for some of the less soluble amino acids.

That would constitute a form of carbon dosing, and one potential outcome of carbon dosing is the promotion of anaerobic de-nitrifying bacteria in the tank's rock work and/or sand bed. While oxidation of ammonia to nitrate consumes alkalinity, the reverse reaction of the reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas (caused by the metabolic processes of anaerobic denitrification bacteria) releases alkalinity to the tank water. Most consider this the desirable outcome of carbon dosing.

 

[Gonzo74]

Thank you very much for your expertise!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, there's no direct chemistry correlation between the addition of amino acids and alkalinity in a tank. However, alterations to the biology in the tank is another matter. It's possible that the amino acid mix you're using contains some amount of ethanol as a solubility promoter for some of the less soluble amino acids.

That would constitute a form of carbon dosing, and one potential outcome of carbon dosing is the promotion of anaerobic de-nitrifying bacteria in the tank's rock work and/or sand bed. While oxidation of ammonia to nitrate consumes alkalinity, the reverse reaction of the reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas (caused by the metabolic processes of anaerobic denitrification bacteria) releases alkalinity to the tank water. Most consider this the desirable outcome of carbon dosing.

If you use sodium salt amino acid forms, such as sodium aspartate, and if this are metabolized instead of being incorporated into proteins, that will add some alkalinity.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

True enough, but I didn't mention that since the molar concentration of amino acids in most of the tank additive formulations is pretty low, and when dosed according to the directions, the increase in the tank water concentration on a molar basis would be really, really low.

But for completeness sake, I'll mention that next time.

 

[BeejReef]

A bit of chemistry, a bit of reefkeeper knowledge needed Randy.

With the cooling fan off for the season and evap down, I've hit the limit of kalk dosing sooner than I expected @1.1dkh daily. I dose from a still reservoir of saturated kalk via dosing pump.

In threads I've researched, I see you've credited Craig Bingman for the 45ml/gallon vinegar to RODI for roughly 2.72 tspn saturation of limewater. You also caution about the potential for excessive carbon dosing.

So, the reefkeeping part - My system is already attuned to about 60% that vinegar dose and has been doing well. I run no socks or skimmer, only macroalgae-fuge. Since I have no skim, do I run the same risk of overdoing the carbon dose, or is it a non-issue bc the bac aren't being skimmed out?

Anything else I should be concerned about?

ty