Ammonia SPIKE

[coltpwrs7]

Hello, I had a starfish die about 10 days ago, he pretty much disintegrated as I was trying to pull him out of the tank. Sense then I've seen my ammonia slowly climb so I started treating with ammolock and biosupport. Yesterday it was about 1.5ppm... I just checked it now and its about 4ppm.

On the back of the ammolock bottle it says that it doesn't remove ammonia but converts it into a nontoxic form... if that's the case how can I test to see if there is still toxic ammonia in my tank? It assume if it converted it to nontoxic the levels still shouldn't be rising with my test kit.

What should I do now? I was thinking more and different kids of ammonia removing media in my sumptank?

Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

 

[taricha]

Ammonia removal/neutralizer/detoxifier products are unhelpful.
If ammonia is high enough to actually be a problem (rarely true - but in your case possibly), then establishing a biofilter is the better thing to focus on.
Good nitrifying bacteria, flow and aeration are generally all that's needed.

 

[coltpwrs7]

Ammonia removal/neutralizer/detoxifier products are unhelpful.
If ammonia is high enough to actually be a problem (rarely true - but in your case possibly), then establishing a biofilter is the better thing to focus on.
Good nitrifying bacteria, flow and aeration are generally all that's needed.

Nitrite and nitrate are zero.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just dose a little Prime. Everything will be ok. Haha.

No, plz don’t. What was the measured spike?? 4ppm was the max?

 

[GARRIGA]

For future deaths. Consider CUC such as nassarius which will devour that starfish. What would have been an ammonia bomb becomes growth and substance for the nassarius who's waste will have a smaller impact on the biological filter over a longer duration.

As mentioned, forget the ammonia wonder bottles. I'd consider getting some Fritz Turbo 900 (from a refrigerated source) and administering at 5x the dosage assuming you have a biological filter. Otherwise, get both. Basically a recycle.

Also one of the few time where I'd perform a large WC just to get a running start unless no other life present or life such as damsels that tend to survive high ammonia as you have present.

Absent access to to Turbo Start, Dr Tim's One and Only along with BioSpira have cycled my ammonia in four days. No experience with Turbo Start other than what other's have reported and have a bottle in my fridge as we speak waiting for me to finally reboot my test tank. I'm curious to see how quickly this cycles vs the other two for myself although search R2R and you 'll see actual studies performed for validation.

 

[coltpwrs7]

Ammonia removal/neutralizer/detoxifier products are unhelpful.
If ammonia is high enough to actually be a problem (rarely true - but in your case possibly), then establishing a biofilter is the better thing to focus on.
Good nitrifying bacteria, flow and aeration are generally all that's needed.

Nitrite and nitrate are zero.
The fish seem happy and healthy.

Just dose a little Prime. Everything will be ok. Haha.

No, plz don’t. What was the measured spike?? 4ppm was the max?

Yes, as of this morning it’s 4.0ppm

But it’s been zero for months until that starfish died.

 

[coltpwrs7]

Ammonia has really spiked today.. the chart on my saltwater test kit goes up to 8.0ppm and its well past that color. That's more then a 5.0ppm increase overnight. The kit im using is the Master salt water test kit by API Marine.
Tank has started to become slightly cloudy, which is the first time its done this.

This afternoon I added more biocubes and ammonia removal blocks to my sumptank. As well as treating with the recommended amount of Seachem Stability for a 125g tank, daily.
Just checked the pH and its about 7.8 which I understand is slightly low.. but I also read that the lower the pH the better when there is ammonia present as its less toxic.
Nitrate and Nitrite is basically 0

I stopped using the ammolock (for one I ran out), and for two I've read in a few places its not doing anything so don't waste my money on it. Fish look pretty healthy but seem to be a bit more aggressive towards each other.

I'm really worried.. I have thousands into this tank I really don't want to lose it. If anyone could help or give recommendations I'd really appreciate it. Thank you!

 

[taricha]

Do a water change.
Get a bottle or two of Fritz bacteria.
Ensure aeration, flow, and light.

 

[taricha]

Oh, and get an ammonia alert badge as an independent method to make sure the ammonia reading is real.
Edit: in the meantime, measure ammonia on new mixed saltwater to doublcheck that the API test kit gives near zero on clean water.

 

[coltpwrs7]

Oh, and get an ammonia alert badge as an independent method to make sure the ammonia reading is real.
Edit: in the meantime, measure ammonia on new mixed saltwater to doublcheck that the API test kit gives near zero on clean water.

Im going this morning to pick one up. Thank you.

 

[GARRIGA]

I don't rely on API reagent ammonia test kit but their test strip is spot on and verified by creating my own reference source using ammonium chloride. I don't trust test strips for anything else other than presence or absence of that tested. If memory serves me right, I think Seachem also has an ammonia strip that gave me similar results to API test strip. Don't hold me to it but the ammonia alert as @taricha mentioned did work for me.

Like he said get some Fritz. Seachem Stability I've used in the past to add diversity but not something I'd rely on to get ammonia cycled. Same with MB7.

 

[coltpwrs7]

My ammonia alert badge has been in the tank for about an hour and this is what it reads..

 

[brandon429]

I like studying ammonia alert threads. yours is the .01% because there's an actual tangible causative. nearly all of them ever posted to this site had no causatives, their test kits simply showed a spike one day and then all kinds of reactions followed.

how much of the rotting mass was left in the tank? ammonia issues resolve fast, within about 10 mins in a system with that much live rock surface area. they cannot persist, as that badge shows, without a lot of rotting biomass still in the tank. how much of it got left in the tank>

that doesn't mean initial losses from the beginning stress of the chemical rot can't cascade and cause cloudiness, but free ammonia is not in play here if the lions share of that starfish was removed. if it wasn't fully removed, I for sure believe low levels of ammonia can temporarily overcome that massive surface area. a tiny fish can't do this, but a big starfish sure can. solid ammonia alert thread, I haven't said that in a few years lol.

 

[GARRIGA]

My ammonia alert badge has been in the tank for about an hour and this is what it reads..

That seems to indicate you have high levels of ammonium and not free ammonia (toxic type). Based on comparing to API which tests total ammonia. An hour should be more than adequate to get a response and when I've tested these it was within the time limit Seachem indicated yet took half a day to reset.

BTW, to have that imbalance of equilibrium between free ammonia and ammonium there would need to be acid pH which isn't possible with salt. That doesn't make sense to have high total ammonia (API) and low free ammonia (Seachem badge).

Seachem - Ammonia Alert

www.seachem.com

 

[coltpwrs7]

I like studying ammonia alert threads. yours is the .01% because there's an actual tangible causative. nearly all of them ever posted to this site had no causatives, their test kits simply showed a spike one day and then all kinds of reactions followed.

how much of the rotting mass was left in the tank? ammonia issues resolve fast, within about 10 mins in a system with that much live rock surface area. they cannot persist, as that badge shows, without a lot of rotting biomass still in the tank. how much of it got left in the tank>

that doesn't mean initial losses from the beginning stress of the chemical rot can't cascade and cause cloudiness, but free ammonia is not in play here if the lions share of that starfish was removed. if it wasn't fully removed, I for sure believe low levels of ammonia can temporarily overcome that massive surface area. a tiny fish can't do this, but a big starfish sure can. solid ammonia alert thread, I haven't said that in a few years lol.

Hardly any was left. Maybe half a teaspoon of light debris. The ammonia issue has been persistent for about a week and within the last two days it really climbed according to the API.
Thank you.. sorry for the panic I’m fairly new to salt water.

 

[brandon429]

thank you for the input for sure. that thing with API none of us can pinpoint, but you can see with that badge there isn't a climbing up status. I personally think api cannot deal accurately with metabolites left over from large ammonia events. it registers those harmless metabolites as actionable ammonia.

for example, check this thread out. all these are false panics caused by api and red sea, and not one owner here had an ammonia issue. yours is the first real one I've seen in maybe 2 or 3 years.

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

ammonia is no longer an issue for your system, that's a massive amount of live rock and photosynthetic material to take up common waste ammonia. a teaspoon of actual liquid ammonia if added to that giant system would resolve in ten minutes on a seneye, this is why I don't believe your problem persists as ammonia:

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

can you do water changes, run carbon heavily pre rinsed in an emergency canister filter to remove the floc and waste from the water column?

 

[brandon429]

so on that note I now think yours is another extended false alert, we have a test kit right there above that also aligns with the remaining fish in the tank: acting normally not showing any symptom whatsoever of rising nh3 uncontrolled (just like our example thread on false alerts test-kit driven only). can you post today's api reading so we can keep that color contrast clear for the thread? I predict api will take about 3-10 days to resolve, although I think your ammonia was resolved within ten minutes of removing the giant mass.


some other irritants other than ammonia are harming the system in my opinion. carbon is indicated, even if that's a little harmful to fish not used to it (pre rinse well for carbon dust) there is no setting in reefing where cloudy water is safe, it's a harbinger of tank crashes so we need clarity back into the system. it's not by adding things, its by removing things/bacteria in the water/causing that cloud.

 

[coltpwrs7]

Sorry I haven’t been able to reply. Busy day at work..

I was just able to run a test on everything during my lunch break.
The results will be in the pictures. Only thing I noticed that’s different from yesterday is Nitrate is not 0 anymore…

pH ^

Ammonia ^

Nitrite ^

Nitrate ^

Ammonia badge after approximately 5 hours ^

Salinity ^
(That was a hard picture to take lol)

Happy fish picture.. hopefully?

Let me know what you think or what the next steps should be. Thank you!!!

 

[coltpwrs7]

thank you for the input for sure. that thing with API none of us can pinpoint, but you can see with that badge there isn't a climbing up status. I personally think api cannot deal accurately with metabolites left over from large ammonia events. it registers those harmless metabolites as actionable ammonia.

for example, check this thread out. all these are false panics caused by api and red sea, and not one owner here had an ammonia issue. yours is the first real one I've seen in maybe 2 or 3 years.

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

ammonia is no longer an issue for your system, that's a massive amount of live rock and photosynthetic material to take up common waste ammonia. a teaspoon of actual liquid ammonia if added to that giant system would resolve in ten minutes on a seneye, this is why I don't believe your problem persists as ammonia:

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

can you do water changes, run carbon heavily pre rinsed in an emergency canister filter to remove the floc and waste from the water column?

I don’t have a canister filter but I can change the sumptank filter socks more frequently. As well as add any beneficial bio media into the floor of the sumptank?

 

[brandon429]

that pic looks fine, I wouldn't take action now that's plenty clear shot above. the less disturbance the better for that big mixed system. looks good, and in no way would I believe there's ammonia issues now. simply hold course is my reco, you can do common water changes at any time always if it looks like it needs refreshing. nothing on the test readings factors: all the things added so far can confound those tests. we'd go off the pic alone in my troubleshoots. resolved issue here.