Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.

[sixty_reefer]

Thanks to all the contributers of this tread for sharing you knowledge.
My question is : In order to fight/avoid nuisance algeas, should the focus be on reducing Ammonia or Nitrate ?
Correct me if I'm wong, but I would expect the answer to be "both" since nuisance algeas are able to utilize N from both , but reducing ammonia increase nitrate.

The focus should be on ammonia, most nuisance algaes will struggle to break down nitrates. If algae is already established you need to look at ways to redirect ammonia to beneficial organisms through competition, that will include bacteria, coral and algae.
A commonly used methods is increasing the intensity of the light in the Refugium vs the light on the DT allowing the Refugium algaes to outcompete the DT algae.

 

[Garf]

As for wet dry revivals. With the advent of carbon dosing then the original fear of them being nitrate factories no longer exist. Why bother with mechanical removal of skimmate. Just let nature do it's thing

My plastic media floats on top of my sump in a large mesh bag. I pump low CO2 air in through a skimmer pump underneath. This air percolates up through the media. This effectively fractionates the skimmable portion and delivers it to the floating media for digestion. For the first week or 10 days there's a small foam head visible in the sump, then nothing, as my evidence of effectiveness. I call it an upside down trickle filter, lol.

 

[GARRIGA]

My plastic media floats on top of my sump in a large mesh bag. I pump low CO2 air in through a skimmer pump underneath. This air percolates up through the media. This effectively fractionates the skimmable portion and delivers it to the floating media for digestion. For the first week or 10 days there's a small foam head visible in the sump, then nothing, as my evidence of effectiveness. I call it an upside down trickle filter, lol.

Similar to a pond filter as far as the floating media?

If feeding the skimmate for decomposition then why bother skimming? That’s why I stopped using skimmers. Unless using strictly for enhanced gas exchange. That’s something I’ve considered yet not sure that actually makes a difference. Seems to be a lot of anecdotal data but I’m sure there’s been test snd I’ve just not found them.

 

[MnFish1]

The picture is a lot more complicated than just ammonia and nitrates which are different forms of Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN). All the organisms in our systems are also dealing with Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON) and Particulate Organic Nitrogen (PON). And since DOC (aka carbon dosing) has been mentioned how it affects the many microbiomes in our system adds probably several more orders of complexity.

Here's a data bomb for those interested in looking at the research. For those who don't want to go down the various rabbit holes what I've learned in 4 decades of keeping reefs systems is do your water changes, use urchins and herbivorus hermits and manual removal for any nuisance algae and keep an eye on alkalinity, calcium and magnesium and adjust what is being fed and done for the growth seen.

Nitrogen Stuff​

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals: Ingenta Connect

www.ingentaconnect.com

Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARY. This study was designed to assess the importance of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) as a nitrogen source for the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. For this purpose, experiments were performed using 15N-enriched DFAAs, and %15N enrichment was measured both in animal tissue and...

journals.biologists.com

Urea a source of nitrogen for corals

Urea uptake by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Urea can be one of the major sources of nitrogen for phytoplankton, but little is known about its importance for corals. Experiments were therefore de…

www.sciencedirect.com

Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals

Diazotrophs: a non-negligible source of nitrogen for the tropical coral Stylophora pistillata - PubMed

Corals are mixotrophs: they are able to fix inorganic carbon through the activity of their symbiotic dinoflagellates and to gain nitrogen from predation on plankton and uptake of dissolved organic and inorganic nutrients. They also live in close association with diverse diazotrophic communities...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism

Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Request PDF

Request PDF | Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Human-mediated increases in nutrient availability alter patterns of primary production, impact species diversity, and threaten ecosystem function.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

Nutrient transfer in a marine mutualism: patterns of ammonia excretion by anemonefish and uptake by giant sea anemones

Nutrient transfer in a marine mutualism: patterns of ammonia excretion by anemonefish and uptake by giant sea anemones - Marine Biology

Many symbioses involve multiple partners in complex, multi-level associations, yet little is known concerning patterns of nutrient transfer in multi-level marine mutualisms. We used the anemonefish symbiosis as a model system to create a balance sheet for nitrogen production and transfer within...

link.springer.com

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Prevalence of potential nitrogen-fixing, green sulfur bacteria in the skeleton of reef-building coral Isopora palifera

https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/lno.10277

Functional significance of dinitrogen fixation in sustaining coral productivity under oligotrophic conditions
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26511052/

Sponge Loop Conserves resources in Coral Reefs (recycles C and N)

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Carbon Stuff​

DOC can be roughly seperated into three catagories, Labile, Semirefractory and Refractory. Most of the following papaers are looking mainly at Labile DOC. This will raise the hackles on some reefers but keep in mind Labile DOC and Carbon Dosing are synonamous. Jasper deGeoij's work shows cryptic sponges remove labile DOC about a thousand times faster than bacterioplankton. Included are links to some of the research showing what cryptic sponges are doing as well. ROhwer's book and video are excellent introductions to the subject of DOC and microbeial processses.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Global microbialization of coral reefs (Rohwer's DDAM Theory Proven)

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

long-term stony coral survival in the Coral Reef Exhibit at Reef HQ Aquarium, Townsville, Australia with an ATS was measured in days, not years. (See figure 3) (This page may have been removed, I can send you a copy of the .PDF if you're interested)

Something went wrong | Royal Burgers' Zoo

www.burgerszoo.com

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate

Coral reefs are one of the most diverse and productive ecosystems on the planet, yet they have suffered tremendous losses due to anthropogenic disturbances and are predicted to be one of the most adversely affected habitats under future climate change ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Sponge Stuff​

BActeria and Sponges


lement cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

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besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu

academic.oup.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

NO offense - what what the point - you posted perhaps 50 pages of reading - can you perhaps condense your thoughts? Its kind of like saying 'google the answer' - and than the poster has to read 50 articles?

 

[sixty_reefer]

NO offense - what what the point - you posted perhaps 50 pages of reading - can you perhaps condense your thoughts? Its kind of like saying 'google the answer' - and than the poster has to read 50 articles?

It’s hard to understand what’s he’s thought, he mentioned DIN and PON that are just ammonia sources although he doesn’t elaborate on it.

 

[damsels are not mean]

The focus should be on ammonia, most nuisance algaes will struggle to break down nitrates. If algae is already established you need to look at ways to redirect ammonia to beneficial organisms through competition, that will include bacteria, coral and algae.
A commonly used methods is increasing the intensity of the light in the Refugium vs the light on the DT allowing the Refugium algaes to outcompete the DT algae.

This would explain why a fuge IS able to out compete algae. It makes more sense now. And the same true in freshwater planted systems. You can have vibrant plants or corals (which depend on N) while having little to no algae (which is somehow unable to utilize N if there is sufficient plant or coral growth), so long as the desirable organisms have the edge on AMMONIA. In freshwater, CO2 for example gives an edge. In saltwater, I guess it is the carbohydrates that create this edge? Or perhaps other things. This thread is very interesting.

 

[Garf]

This would explain why a fuge IS able to out compete algae. It makes more sense now. And the same true in freshwater planted systems. You can have vibrant plants or corals (which depend on N) while having little to no algae (which is somehow unable to utilize N if there is sufficient plant or coral growth), so long as the desirable organisms have the edge on AMMONIA. In freshwater, CO2 for example gives an edge. In saltwater, I guess it is the carbohydrates that create this edge? Or perhaps other things. This thread is very interesting.

I’ve seen no evidence fuges can outcompete display algae in nearly 20 years.

 

[TokenReefer]

Just my thought that perhaps flow plays a roll in mitigation. I think within our tanks are "micro zones" (made that up) where doc can build up and if not dispersed (dispensed?) promote nuisance algae if present. I have coral skeleton with cup like indents and even tho it's in the main flow path in my tank the flow doesn't penetrate these cups and they collect what I think is cyano. I can picture a stream going over but not into these micro zones.. I feel like the build up within is why yhe cups fill w nuisance (not solely, along with a few other factors) . In my mind at least from my observations... Gonna remove the rock soon

 

[damsels are not mean]

I’ve seen no evidence fuges can outcompete display algae in nearly 20 years.

It's just one of those things everybody says?

 

[hart24601]

I’ve not see evidence that ammonia levels are a predictor of algae issues,

Folks dosing ammonia have not reported issues that I remember, but dosing it doesn’t necessarily mean steady state concentrations are appreciably higher compared to dosing nitrate or amino acids.

Just my experience but I dosed ammonia in my system for quite a while with positive results, although my system was a bit odd that it had sps in display and a 150g basement sump/Refugium with clams for fun. No algae or other problems.

it may have works too well as I ended up donating the clams to the local zoo, the uptake demand was getting out of control!

 

[Lasse]

About dosing ammonia - it could be a question of type of tank. Newly started with a low biomass of corals - promote algae because of the algae's higher grow rate - in a tank heavily populated of corals - promote corals because the total daily growth of corals is higher than the total growth of the algae - only my 2 cents

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sixty_reefer]

This would explain why a fuge IS able to out compete algae. It makes more sense now. And the same true in freshwater planted systems. You can have vibrant plants or corals (which depend on N) while having little to no algae (which is somehow unable to utilize N if there is sufficient plant or coral growth), so long as the desirable organisms have the edge on AMMONIA. In freshwater, CO2 for example gives an edge. In saltwater, I guess it is the carbohydrates that create this edge? Or perhaps other things. This thread is very interesting.

In saltwater carbohydrates are added daily with feeding, some foods are higher than others in this nutrient, they help maintain a balance within the beneficial bacteria that can use them to grow and divide. In our hobby we often use this source of organic carbon and others to aid the beneficial bacteria at reducing nutrients, nitrates is not the only nutrients that they oxidise for example some heterotrophic bacteria will employ enzymes, or proteins that help them break down different nutrients to a useable form for energy, Through this process of breaking down and utilising nutrients for energy, bacteria also produce many byproducts, these byproducts include gases, such as hydrogen and methane, vitamins such as K and the B-group (a source that we rely on) and metabolites such as short chain fatty acids some of this byproduct can be beneficial to other organisms in the system.

other aspect is during GHA blooms folks often assume that the algae is using all the nitrates and phosphates in the system, as this may be correct for phosphates the same won’t happen for nitrates, if all ammonia is being used for algae growth this will reflect on nitrates, the beneficial bacteria can’t complete the nitrogen cycle if ammonia is being limited by the same.
That’s why is always a good practice to aid the beneficial bacteria by increasing nitrates with potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate in those situations never potassium nitrate as it will rise potassium and never a product that contains ammonia or urea as it will just feed the nuisance further. Often we se folks using products that contain those to try and raise nitrates in the presence of nuisance without ever seeing nitrates rising with the recommended dose.
The same can happen with trying to overfeed to try and raise nutrients, it can become a problem as algae and other nuisances will assimilate ammonia before bacteria can use it to complete the nitrogen cycle, usually ending up with high phosphates as they only require a small amount to grow.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I’ve seen no evidence fuges can outcompete display algae in nearly 20 years.

Some algae’s can use ammonia more efficiently than others, I believe folks on the triton method are encouraged in using different species as this is one of the benefits of a algae bed.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just my experience but I dosed ammonia in my system for quite a while with positive results, although my system was a bit odd that it had sps in display and a 150g basement sump/Refugium with clams for fun. No algae or other problems.

it may have works too well as I ended up donating the clams to the local zoo, the uptake demand was getting out of control!

Ammonia is highly desirable by many photosynthetic organisms and coral is no different, I would advocate ammonia dosing to aid the growth of coral although I wouldn’t encourage it during the maturing process of a system. Ammonia is only a issue if nuisances are established in the system to start with. This is due the nuisance algae having the exact same nutrients requirement as all photosynthetic coral, the main difference is that algae can grow faster than coral as we know and use the ammonia more efficiently.

Id like to point out that your rockwork and other surfaces in your system are full of algae this happens with many mature systems we often don’t bring it up, but many systems are considered mature once they develop coraline algae that in its turn will also benefit from ammonia and compete with other less desirable algaes for the same nutrient and space and without having other nuisances to compete with them often folks with fairly mature systems consider them as a problem due to the rapid growth achieved by not having less competition.

 

[sixty_reefer]

About dosing ammonia - it could be a question of type of tank. Newly started with a low biomass of corals - promote algae because of the algae's higher grow rate - in a tank heavily populated of corals - promote corals because the total daily growth of corals is higher than the total growth of the algae - only my 2 cents

Sincerely Lasse

I couldn’t have said it better

 

[Garf]

It's just one of those things everybody says?

Here’s a few quick pics of my tank from today. If I had a fuge I could claim it’s algae free status is due to competition from the algae in the fuge, and without a doubt it would be believed. However, I grow nothing photosynthetic in my sump. So, am I some sort of reef master, lol;

 

[sixty_reefer]

Here’s a few quick pics of my tank from today. If I had a fuge I could claim it’s algae free status is due to competition from the algae in the fuge, and without a doubt it would be believed. However, I grow nothing photosynthetic in my sump. So, am I some sort of reef master, lol;

There’s many photosynthetic algaes in your DT to claim that a Refugium is not effective at outcompeting them.
Although a refugium is not the only known organism effective at reducing ammonia

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The focus should be on ammonia, most nuisance algaes will struggle to break down nitrates.

What is the evidence that algae "strugggles" to use nitrate?

 

[sixty_reefer]

What is the evidence that algae "strugggles" to use nitrate?

Probably wrong word to describe it, I prefer the words you use in this paper under “Sinks for Ammonia in Reef Aquaria: Algae”

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Paul B]

I do not think it is clear that either one is necessarily the answer.

Almost everyone here is smarter than I am but I think we are missing a very important point. All the things we are posting about, bacteria, algae, cyano, diatoms, hydrogen peroxide, etc. are transient.

They are all fluid and change constantly so whatever you do and how many times you do it, it is only temporary. The sea, our hair and our tanks are in a constant state of flux and everything runs in cycles. The vast majority of people don't keep a tank long enough to realize this because some cycles last a few months and some last years.

If you for instance dose hydrogen peroxide, bottled bacteria, or carbon, whatever effects that gives you or doesn't give you may only last a week or two. In a year or two it won't mean anything.

Our tanks, and the sea are ecosystems surviving on the whims of the bacteria, diatoms, viruses, funguses, algae's and parasites in our systems and these things are always in conflict. They all prey on each other and the outcomes of those conflicts is what determines the health, looks and longevity of our tanks. If we could see these things we would see a violent war as every centimeter of our tanks is covered in life.

Normally anything we add could be detrimental to the normal process.

In my fifty year old tank right now I have some algae, cyano, "plenty" of diatoms and God knows what.

I have so many diatoms now that I can clean my glass every day or sometimes twice a day.
It's a cycle and eventually, with no help from me, it will resolve by itself and I will not add or remove anything to "help" it because after doing this for half a century, I consider myself smarter than the average bacteria and can wait them out.

But besides those things I mentioned we also have toxins from corals and anemones which all those creatures exude in varying amounts. These things change with the seasons or the growth of those creatures. In my tank I have an enormous growth of invasive sponge that emits toxins that killed all my SPS but nothing else. We never take these things into consideration and instead focus on adding one thing or another.

I feel the best thing we can do is add an algae scrubber which is natural and will only remove what is not needed and leave everything else. This will not upset the delicate balance of microbes that do not like the addition of "any" chemical.

I also feel that our habit of adding things to change something normal is the cause of so many people leaving this hobby and the reason there are very few old tanks.

What is the evidence that algae "strugggles" to use nitrate?

What is the evidence that Randy strugggles to write the word "Struggle"?